asking for it?

What we should be looking at is what leads a man to be "of a mind to rape/assault a woman".

If you think it's down to an unavoidable pathology of the rapist's mind, then there's nowt we can do about it.

I don't think that though.

Screamin - but we already do curtail our lives in all sorts of ways in the attempt to protect ourselves, don't we. Women don't need to be told this stuff as if it's something that's never occurred to us. It's the way women live all of the time and if we dare to break any of these rules (rules which in any case don't prevent rape), we're held responsible for the consequences. It's simply unacceptable that half of the population has to live their lives in the knowledge that they are prey.

Sorry tortoisonthehaldshell my computer over heated so yes it was difficult.

Yes I feel walking home at night is more dangerous than being at home. I appreciate this is not true for all women but it is for me.

I know that many women are attacked in their own homes and by their partner. Ignoring that a small proportion aren't is not helpful to those people who are. Yes rapists need to not rape but quite honestly I think we are a long way from that.

Yes, all people need to be educated about respecting others. Especially now that young people have such access to porn online which can skew their perspective of what is normal.

But it is not impossible to reduce your risk of crime.

'Men are the people to stop rape'

If you repalced that with rapists I would entirely agree

We do nobody any good by normalising rape as a general male thing- men who rape need to be identified as the class of eprverts that they are

Soapboxqueen:

You said earlier that 'some situations are more dangerous than others'. Do you mean 'walking alone at night' is more dangerous than being at home, or don't you? I'm up to the fourth fifth time of asking this,now.

Is there a reason it's difficult to answer me?

ScreamingEagle, do you really think that rapists can't be deterred by effective criminal justice? So they exist in a sphere outside normal criminality, then? Unlike murderers, robbers, etc., you think they are totally oblivious to punishment? So there's not much point in legislating against rape at all, in your view? We should just legalise it and free up the court's time?

That one was just horrible. I think that people in positions of power who make comments like that should be sanctioned in some way because that is the sort of thing that makes rapists aware that they can rape with impunity, as clearly even judges feel that its just fine even to rape young damaged children.

The trouble is that there are really no safety tips we can give our daughters that will really reliably work. The other day it was reported that some poor woman was raped by her brother (although the headline was incest I noted) who she had apparently a totally normal and quite close relationship with.

Personally I think that he rape myth is rather like the "Stranger Danger" myth that has curtailed all our children's freedoms. These campaigns have a negligible impact on the real danger but a very serious impact on peoples lives and feeling of general safety (and trust in other people too).

"In terms of the rapist, I think society only views them as wholly responsible if the child is very young..."

If only that were true, MillyR - I remember the case of a nine year old who'd been attacked by her (male) baby sitter, the judge commented she was 'no angel'.

"The comment had apparently been provoked by a social services report of the girl having previously been the object of an older boy's sexual interest."

FFS!

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/no-angel-sex-abuse-case-man-jailed-court-of-appeal-criticises-judge-fo r-his-unacceptable-comment-about-girl-nine-1487937.html

"Rapists target people who won't be believed and who will be blamed."

Yeah, women.

"So....in that most rapists are men, and most child abusers are men, and the amount of threads on MN about lazy/abusive/substandard husbands and boyfriends, the only answer really is to be a lesbian.
Simples."

Or single...

Yes, Gay40, often thought the same thing myself, but being a lesbian still wouldn't protect you from rape. In fact, as no doubt you're aware, some men think rape is a 'cure'.

What about my 'free will'?

What about my 'freedom of choice'?

I take it that's something else, I, as a woman, will be deprived of if a man exercises his 'free will' to rape me.

That's license, not freedom.

"I know Rape is a crime, but it being a crime is never going to take away a mans ability to CHOSE to Rape a woman or not, no amount of education is going to take that ability away."

Perhaps rape can never be completely eradicated, no. But the fact is, we live in a society where hardly any rapes reported to the police end in a conviction, where the majority of rapes are never reported, and where who knows how many rapes are not even recognised as such by the victims themselves because ideas about what counts as rape and who is responsible for rape are so confused. Going back to TheFallenMadonna's post at the beginning of the thread, girls are being taught rape myths in school (I don't know if TFM's experience was an anomaly: I do hope it was). Porn depicting rape is easier to get hold of than ever before. Factors like these must have an effect - a significant effect, imho - on the prevalence of rape. It's called 'rape culture' and it's not inevitable.

I do actually think that if men knew that there was a 95% chance of being sent to jail for a very long time if they raped someone, quite a few of them would think twice.

Not the total psychopaths, but the chancers, maybe.

At the moment men know that they can rape as many women as they want and the chance of going to prison for it is pretty much zero. In fact they probably won't even be questioned by the police or anything. At the moment it's a non-event, crime-wise. There is no deterrent at all.

I read in the Guardian that one third of rape victims are under 16, and in London half are under 18. I wonder if we have a different attitude to paedophilia than to rape.

In terms of public attitudes to the victims, I suppose if a child is raped, the parents are held responsible (if they are not the perpetrator) for letting the child out alone or leaving the child with someone else. When it comes to adult women, other adults around her will often treat her as a child if she attempts to be independent, by insisting that she cannot walk home alone, go into a pub alone, and so on.

In terms of the rapist, I think society only views them as wholly responsible if the child is very young. Otherwise how can anyone say that rape victims are asking for it, when so many of them are still of school age?

Good post Dittany.

Further, pointing 100% of the blame at the perpetrator also has a protective effect for the majority of men who would never rape: my dh is as disgusted with the sex worker scenatio belowv as I am, and IMO there needs to be clear condemnation of rapists so that women and men do not have blame attributed to them under some weird fault / all men are raposts / asked for it paradigm shift

Thanks for that link molesworth it sums up nicely what I was getting at and what others have been saying.

Dunno what RAINN is playing at giving out advice that perpetuates rape myths tbh. If you look at the UK's Rape Crisis website, this sort of advice is listed on their "Common Myths and Misconceptions" page

Clarissimo that's horrible. I never really understand why some women condemn sex workers so thoroughly. It's not like many of them are likely to have chosen that life.

Also, your friend must be in deep denial or in a really scary place...

You can e-mail RAINN and ask them about their advice. I posted to show that some people who deal with rape victims believe that in some cases some simple steps can be taken in order to keep people safe. It's more about being more vulnerable to crime in general. I have already stated that ignoring this advice does not mean that a victim would be to blame.

Recently a witness pulled out of a case where a man I know (married to a friend of mine mores the damned pity) raped a prostitute he has now been convicted of having trafficked into the country, the general feeling amongst many of my friedns is that she asked for it as she was a prostotute so why be a witness

I am questioning deeply how close I can be to people who think that way tbh