asking for it?

namechange, I'm so sorry You must be an exceptional woman to have come through all that without crumbling (even if it must have felt like you were at times).

I wonder how much of the rapes and assaults are aided by that stupid crap about when a woman says "Yes, she means yes. Maybe, she means yes. No, she means yes." or however it goes? I don't think it's heard as often these days (at least I hope not) but it was certainly still around while I was a teenager (1980s).

BDSM that is just really horrible. What a disgusting pair. I really really hope they get convicted and a decent sentence. That poor bloody kid, of course she couldn't do anything with the two of them there and no escape route. I hope she has a lot of support.

I really think that men should be taught that it's not just about the woman "not saying no" but about them saying and obviously meaning "yes please". Forcing yourself on someone obviously having no choice in the matter is quite clearly rape, and I suspect that they both know that perfectly well. Their surprise I expect is that she reported them and that she was taken seriously by the police.

I was once told that if I were ever to be attacked or assaulted I should shout 'fire!', rather than 'rape!' as people are more likely to respond to the former. Telling isn't it?

Oh gosh tortoise - that sounds horribly familiar. I spent a few weeks not even being able to get on the bus because I couldn't bear to have anyone that physically close to me but then I too became very promiscuous. I now have the ability to have sex with men and not become at all emotionally involved. While that can be convenient at times, I do wonder if being raped has meant that part of me has shut down - it's certainly cocked up most of my long term relationships since

So many sad stories here - I wonder what the real percentage of women who have been sexually assaulted or raped is? I am determined to talk about what happened to me because even though I do feel ashamed of what happened, it allows me to have some power back. I also want my male friends to know that it's happened to me - that this isn't something removed and that you read about in the papers - it's their friends and family who have been victims

Namechange, a LOT of women date their attackers after the fact. It's a way to take control back (if I'm seeing him, it can't have been rape) and process what's happened.

A lot of rape victims also go through a promiscuous period after the attack, again probably as a way to try and feel in control of one's body again. I did, and I hated myself for it, and I still remember the relief I felt when I learned it was normal behaviour. I'd thought I must be the most awful, callous, slutty person ever, to have been raped and yet then gone on to sleep around.

Thanks Lutyens, Blackcurrants & Molesworth. TBH it has shocked me that people would even comment on my experience, let alone express sympathy over it. It's been 8 years since I was last raped and 6 years since I was last assaulted.

The last time I was assaulted I had had a stupid row with then bf (now DH)and stomped out to cool off. I had just got out of our flat and turned the corner when a man of 18-21 appeared and exposed himself, then made a grab for me. I tried to run and just fell on the floor, likely he then ran off. I reported this to the police with DH's support but nothing ever came of it.

I had always told myself that I would run if a stranger tried anything but I found myself literally paralysed by fear rather than being paralysed by not wanting to be rude.

After my date rape I thought I should have just said 'If you carry on with this, you will be raping me' I couldn't say this as I had invited him back to mine. Afterwards I walked him back to the train station. I even ended up seeing him for a while. I could never be his girlfriend though as I was too easy . That's right, he managed to rape me and that made me too slutty to be his girlfriend and I saw him again. How much of a glutton for punishment was I?

I am terrified that my daughters will learn of my behaviour and find me wanting.

I have no idea how to raise the issue with them. Luckily they are very young so even my eldest isn't aware of sex yet.

I'm so sorry namechange

Oh namechange, that's so heartbreakingly sad.

HerBeatitiude: this is the full link, so if it doesn't work you can paste it kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-gu ide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

It's sodding brilliant. So's the comment discussion, though it will eat up 2 hours of your life, at least. They have good mods over there at Shapely Prose, they really do.

namechange

I'm practically shaking reading this. I've been assaulted/raped umpteen times. From age 15 doing my paper round in DMs by a 12 y/o who offered to pay me for a blow job to rapes by my then bf in my late teens (I think it was punishment for miscarrying)to date rape by a guy I knew (a friend of a friend).

I've namechanged because I'm still terrified that I will met my ex-bf again (I stayed with him for years after the rapes stopped [sexual assaults still happened though]). I 'see' him everywhere - barely a day goes by that I don't think I have seen him. Any man with shaved dark hair freaks me out.

At the time though I was convinced it was all my fault and I deserved it. He even blamed me for him getting 'involved' in a S&M scene with a 14 y/o whilst on holiday (we couldn't afford for both of us to go so he went with out me) as I had denied him sex at the time (I wasn't even on the same continent). He was upset that he hadn't been able hurt her like she apparently wanted him too. The fact that he didn't care that I cried during sex and bled after due to how rough he was didn't seem to bother him.

Sorry for dumping this into the convo. I just needed to get this off my chest about the 'she was asking for it' thing. I was asking for it as I was asleep in his (and later on my/our own) bed. My DH (who is very lovely and would never do anything to hurt me) isn't allowed to even kiss or touch me non-sexually in my sleep.

I've had a man grope my breast coming up to a crowded zebra crossing - people saw. A business man looked at me, and I at him in shock after it happened. No one stopped, everyone carried on walking. I was gob smacked and if he hadn't been 6 foot 5 at least and with a friend, I like to think I would have done something but I didn't and I hate myself for it (despite knowing I have no reason to!). I should kicked him in the nuts repeatedly.

Anyway, I don't think a man has to be mentally unwell to grope a woman in public.

HerBeatitude - bloody well done. I know we're taking risks by reacting so strongly but why the fuck should they get away with it?

Oh AF, I know... I had a man chase a friend and me (two of us risking our safety by buying some chips in a small Suffolk town after 9pm) with a knife. He and a friend had been suggesting we might like to "service" them in their pick-up. I told them to "Fuck off", as you would, and the passenger leapt out and ran after us. My friend was a faster runner than me and I could hear the man catching up with me so I stopped and turned round. My mad reasoning being that he would be less likely to stab me if he had to look me in the face. At that moment, thank God, someone I knew drove up in his car, rushed out, chased the man off and took my friend and I to the police station. Despite giving statements and providing the registration number of the pick-up, I never heard another thing.

Again, this was a long time ago - more than 20 years ago. I hope the police would take it more seriously now.

This is making me think of Philip Zimbardo and his Stanford Prison Experiment and also Christopher Browning's book "Ordinary Men". If the circumstances are right ('right' being a poor choice of word here, sorry), perfectly ordinary people can and will do evil things.

Oh i had one of those in Regent Street, I suspect it's a favourite haunt of these pervs because it's just round the corner from Soho so they've wandered out by mistake. He grabbed my arse and I chased him. Have no idea what I would have done if I'd caught him (visions of DelBoy and Rodney chasing after those those thieves and then catching up with them and having to run away...) I chased after him yelling "catch that man, he's stolen something!" and when passers by asked me what he'd taken, I realised that I had no idea what to say - him pinching my arse struck me as being something they would find perfectly acceptable and not a good reason to create a hue and cry.

blimey, belle

I reckon he must have been mentally unwell to be so open about it

You were lucky it didn't escalate, tbh

Because unfortunately, passers-by may not have come to your aid...

I think this experience of mine (which didn't so much upset me as infuriate me) is illustrative of how bizarre some men are. Walking in London (just off Regent Street) daringly on my own in broad daylight. I'm wearing a dress (knee length), long jacket and low heeled shoes. A man walking in the opposite direction put his hand inside my jacket and grabbed my left breast. I grabbed his arm and slapped him hard (repeatedly) around the head (he was similar height to me). He then ran off...

Two things to consider with this - firstly, what the fuck was that about anyway? And, secondly, what if he'd had a knife? I'm still glad I hit him though - tosser.

I'm not sure, I think all men can be sex offenders given the right combination of circumstances, just as all women can be murderers/ child abusers / insert undesirable thing here, given the right combination of circs - war, famine, attack etc. None of us knows what we're capable of and that's probably a good thing.

I have a nasty suspicion that one of the reasons some men go along with the rape culture, is that they're leaving the door open for them to participate in rape - just in case. It's very notable that often, men are far more likely to condemn a man who comes on too strong to a woman, or is a bit sexually aggressive or subjects her to unwanted attention, than women are - and those more hardline men, are the ones who aren't wanting to keep that door open IMO.

yes, I reckon significant minority too

I don;t really either, it was just a dark thought moment.

I do believe it is a pretty significant minority though - especially when you include things like grabbing at women randomly and all the stuff we are supposed to laugh off.

I imagine that if you asked most men if they thought it was a crime to feel someone's bum at the bar in the pub, they would laugh at the idea.

ISNT, thankfully I really don't believe that the majority of men are potentially sex-offenders

because that would be too awful

I agree with you though, that MN has taught me soooooo much

I had my bloody head buried in the sand for such a long time...

moesworth yes.

I used to think that if all of the men who have ever sexually assaulted anyone suddenly vanished off the face of the earth, there'd be hardly any men left.

And that is a big problem, isn't it.

If all women suddeny started reporting all sexual assaults, and teh police had to investigate them all, they woudn't have time to do anything else.

It is not in the interests of our society in lots of ways to take this stuff seriously.

After all women have been raped and attacked for milennia - but we carry on being wives and mothers and doing the housework and holding it all together.

if every time a woman was attacked she removed herself completely from society and went to live on an island somewhere forever, then maybe people would do something.

AF that's the other problem isn't it - if no-one talks about it then the problem is hidden. we all deal with our experiences by ourselves. BUT that is why this board has been such a revelation to me. from here I have talked about what has happened, heard about what has happened to otehr people, started threads, signed petitions, read blogs. This is a great thing that is happening here IMO

there is still such a stigma about having been sexually asaulted though

why ??

I suspect a proper dissection of rape would lead to the unravelling of patriarchy itself (because when you start to think of what needs to change to improve the situation, you soon see that those changes would be very far reaching). So there's a hell of a lot at stake.