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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

asking for it?

318 replies

antoinettechigur · 17/04/2010 18:02

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

OP posts:
KinderellaTristabelle · 21/04/2010 08:28

Tortoise that is so true about the impossible social expectations.

That thread on victim behaviour is probably a good idea.

Well said garden path. Thats a great point (among many) about insurance and rape as a natural disaster. I nearly spat out my cereal. So true.

Agree BDSM.

Also the karate thing might be a good confidence/assertiveness booster in terms of her ability to say 'no' to unwanted advances as well as the physical benefits.

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 07:41

I know this is probably really stupid and just proves that I've been as conditioned as anyone else but I am determined that DD (2.7) will be doing karate rather than ballet once she's old enough. I doubt it'd actually help her much in a dangerous situation but I want her to have every physical chance of protecting herself. How dreadful is it that I believe this to be a reasonable perspective to try to keep my daughter safe?

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 21/04/2010 07:34

"The 'advice' we get as women, to 'avoid rape', as has been discussed, (don't walk alone at night etc), is myth, but that's not its point, the point is to generate fear of the outside world so that we stay home, where we can be ?contained?".

Precisely, and this is where the disconnect happens between the wellmeaning women who ask, but what's the harm in giving women personal safety tips, and those of us arguing that they are worse than useless, they are harmful.

I agree, BDSM, I think this thread has been great for a number of reasons. I'm tempted to start a follow up about victim behaviours, after realising that no-one knows what is actually typical behaviour after the rape happens. Clearly we are all too fixated on victim behaviour before the rape and that's all.

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 07:20

And, while I'm feeling outraged, I'm a bit disappointed that this topic hasn't made it onto "Discussions of the Day"...

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 07:19

GardenPath - if you're not writing for a profession, you should be. What a fantastic post.

GardenPath · 21/04/2010 06:10

This was an interesting program. Last broadcast yesterday, 11:30 on BBC Radio 4:

'Madwomen in the Attic' will consider bedside analysis from afar for the mad, bad and sad heroines of classic fiction through the eyes of modern medicine and psychiatry. '... including the first Mrs Rochester in 'Jane Eyre', Lady Glyde in Wilkie Collins' 'A Woman in White' and the (undoubtedly maddening) Emma Bovary in 'Madame Bovary'"

Also includes the case of Rosina Bulwer Lytton, novelist, essayist and satirist, daughter of the early feminist Anna Wheeler, ?...for a modern audience, it seems barely credible that a fortune-seeking husband could get away with having his sane wife certified and locked up in an asylum...? but Edward Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton had his wife carted off to Brentford asylum in 1858 because she was an embarrassment to his political career.

To quote the presenter, Vivienne Parry "...women that refused to conform were the ones that got locked up, by men, in attics or whatever other spaces were available..."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00s0cn3

While this isn't about rape per se, it is about control of women, by men.
The deeper societal psyche of rape is all about control, by men, of women. When a woman is raped outside her own home, it?s a punishment; she, and all other women, is being told, in no uncertain terms, she has no right to be out, in the public men's sphere - her proper place is at home, shut away, ?contained?. Preferably under the ownership of a man. It's a warning. This is our domain, if you enter it, this is what you'll get. If you're raped you've ?asked for it'. Our own society, and even posts here, tells us this - we must watch where we go, who we're with, what we wear, how we behave and even what time of day we are permitted to be abroad in safety. No such ?advice? is given to men. Nobody says to men, ?because of your sex, you must curtail your freedom if you don?t want something nasty to happen to you?.

While anyone may be mugged in a dark alley, only women face the threat of attack simply for being women. And not often is it for fear of a woman that we avoid that dark alley. While we can leave our mobiles and laptops at home, we can hardly leave our vagina's.

The attitude, to rape, rapists and the raped, of our patriarchal society is clearly telling us something.

The 'advice' we get as women, to 'avoid rape', as has been discussed, (don't walk alone at night etc), is myth, but that's not its point, the point is to generate fear of the outside world so that we stay home, where we can be ?contained?. (Where we?re likely to get raped, statistically, more often ? so it?s not to avoid rape, then). The moment it?s uttered and the very fact that this ?advice? exists, and is widely promulgated, is a gift and an immediate ?get out clause? for men who rape, or who pressurise women for sex, and for society to take rape seriously. It?s an ?I told you so?. Which shifts blame onto the raped ? if only they?d heeded the warning, it wouldn?t have ?happened? to them. ?You know what men are like?; ?boys will be boys?.
I would hope that any modern, thinking man would be as incensed by the implications of this for him as I am incensed by the implications for women. Unfortunately, sadly and horrifyingly, given the statistics, I cannot afford to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, when you consider that had our forebears, women and some men, not fought for the rights we have today, such as they are, we would still be owned by our husbands as chattel wives, as we were; we would still be required to ?submit? to our husbands sexual needs and there would still be no such thing as rape within marriage. We would still be having fourteen children if we hadn?t fought for contraception within marriage, we would still have no property rights and any property we may have owned would automatically have passed to our husband on marriage for him to dispose of as he may, as they did; our husbands would still automatically have the right to take our children away from us in event of divorce or separation, as they did; we would still be deprived of an education and we would still not have the vote. This is a very short list but the patriarchy fought tooth and nail against all this which surely gives some idea of what men think of women.

This is what our society, deep down and from deep historical roots, thinks should be the lot of women, and, as said in the program ?'Madwomen in the Attic?, I linked to earlier, "...women that refused to ?conform? were the ones that got locked up, by men, in attics.? Or raped.

We would still be under a Talibanesque regime, as many women still are, ruled by men, with our freedom of movement, freedom of speech and freedom of any choice over our own lives virtually non-existent. You don?t have to look too far back in history and not too far afield today to see how men, the Patriarchy, did, will and do treat us if they can. And as I said, still would in our society but that the freedoms we women enjoy today were clawed, scratched, and died for against people, men, the Patriarchy, who fought just as bitterly to deny us. What was wrong with them? To quote the anti-slavery slogan (?Am I not a Man and a Brother??) - ?Am I not a Woman and a Sister??

Look at it. The origins of this are rooted way back and a subject for a whole Mumsnet thread of its own.
Rape has been used by men against women throughout the ages, either as personal control in the domestic sphere as a ?right? (and it was argued, regarding rape within marriage, that when a woman said ?I do? at the altar, that was thereafter consent) or systematically as a weapon of war, as in the Congo, right now. I found so many links to rape in Haiti - even after a national disaster, the first thing some men think of is raping the women.

www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/moving_america_news/17150

When Dittany says ?...that women are in a constant state of consent?, she is right; men consider women in a constant state of consent, as a default condition, but in the domestic sphere, ?by right?, this means the husband, though we are silent, as posts on this thread testify, about the father, the brother, the uncle, the cousin, the ?friend of the family?, the Priest.

If she dare venture to the outside world, to work, to play, to dare to be independent, she opens herself up to all, she is sexual ?fair game?.

It would be interesting to see what the premium would be to insure against rape. Or would this be classed as ?Natural Disaster? - ?Act of God??

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 21/04/2010 02:02

The really interesting thing about the Shapely Prose piece (and I'm glad someone linked to that, I had meant to as well, and it warms my cockles to know that lots of people have read it already) is the absolute outrage expressed by some of the male commenters. How dare we exist in a state of fear, how dare we choose to ignore friendly overtures, how dare we approach situations by assuming that every man could be a rapist, because we just don't know.

That's sexist, they say, that's tarring all men with the same brush, you could be missing out on a beautiful friendship, it's demeaning to men to say that they're rapists, etc etc etc.

And yet, this is the same culture that condemns women when we do act friendly, nice, give the man the benefit of the doubt (well he might just chatting to me, he might not have any designs, maybe he genuinely has missed his last bus home) and the man rapes us - well, that's our fault too. We should have been more careful, we shouldn't have been alone with him, what on earth* were we thinking letting him buy us a drink are we mad? Or stupid?

Everything in our culture teaches women to be accommodating, polite, meek, to be nice to men and have sympathy for their social awkwardness, to be quiet, never raise our voices and certainly never show that we have physical strength and power. And yet we're expected to be able to suddenly flip a switch partway through a rape attempt and be able to say NO clearly and repeatedly, to fight physically, to scream.

Can't win for losing, really.

*I originally wrote 'and get raped'. It's so insidious, this passive voice thing that erases the actual rapist.

GardenPath · 21/04/2010 01:37

"Our culture must really hate women for this to be so common."

Ah, Kinder - well done. The first to say it.

KinderellaTristabelle · 20/04/2010 22:42

Oh Ladybiscuit I'm so sorry to hear that.

That's awful, and its awful that you have felt responsible in any way.

That other one sounds planned too.

I think we are brainwashed by our culture into not 'seeing' rape when it happens, whether to ourselves or others.

This must have happened to so many people who probably never realised it wasn't their fault.

That 'reasonable belief in consent' part of the legal definition has to be a big problem. I know someone linked to a study on one of these threads showing how young men knew and understood all the cues that meant 'no' when asked how they'd respond to unwanted advances, but that they still chose to pretend to be oblivious to that knowledge when the situation was reversed.

So men do know, but they also know that the received wisdom is that unless a clear 'no' is heard it will be considered ambiguous.

I agree with so much here.

I can't get my head round why someone would want to have sex with someone who isn't enthusiastically consenting. That would be a real turn off for me. Our culture must really hate women for this to be so common.

BelleDameSansMerci · 20/04/2010 22:37

LadyB

Oh this thread is really so eye-opening. Would be great if one of the bloody nationals would talk about this rather than the usual MN stuff they publish. Can just imagine the slant they'd put on it though.

dittany · 20/04/2010 22:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyBiscuit · 20/04/2010 21:51

Thank you all. It means more than I can possibly say. I wonder if I hadn't already been raped in similarly dubious circumstances (the first time was by a bloke I was dating who couldn't get home after a date and so stayed at my flat and I woke up to find him inside me) I would have reacted differently. That first time I didn't consider it rape until I told a friend a few days later. But then another friend told me it wasn't rape and that it was my fault for saying he could stay the night (even though I had said clearly that I didn't want to have sex with him before I went to be).

Women are not generally very supportive of other women who get raped by people they know it seems - we are much more comfortable with the 'stranger' rape where things are much more clearcut

dittany · 20/04/2010 21:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

antoinettechigur · 20/04/2010 21:29

Ladybiscuit that's horrific.
Easy for me to say, but you shouldn't feel ashamed for not protesting. People who will attack a woman in that way will be careful to pick on someone vulnerable who will find it hard to object, for whatever reason.

It is his fault.

OP posts:
msrisotto · 20/04/2010 21:25

I really believe enthusiastic consent should be obtained before sex. ladybiscuit - that really sounds like rape. I'm so sorry for you. You not fighting back doesn't mean you consented.

Molesworth · 20/04/2010 21:23

Bloody hell ladybiscuit

The sense of entitlement these men have is just so shocking (yet unsurprising after reading this thread and realising how bad the reality actually is).

That Jack Tweed case that was linked upthread - the woman didn't say "no", she didn't say anything - so they assume that silence = consent. They assume that she's available for sex by default.

LadyBiscuit · 20/04/2010 21:15

Kinderella - I think that's so true. Several years after my 'real' rape, I went back to a friend's house after a party. There were a load of people sitting around drinking and talking including some quite famous people. I went to the loo and when I came out, one of the famous blokes was waiting to go in (or so I thought). But he sort of pushed me into an empty room, pulled up my skirt and fucked me. I didn't want it but I didn't want to make a big fuss so I just let him. Not exactly rape but I don't think he can possibly have thought I wanted to have sex with him.

I've never told anyone about that before. I am truly ashamed of that experience because I feel I should have shouted out or done something to stop him but I was too drunk and didn't want to make a scene

dittany · 20/04/2010 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KinderellaTristabelle · 20/04/2010 20:57

That is another great link Molesworth, thank you.

That 'paralysed by not wanting to be rude' thing. That really makes me think. There are numerous situations where I and others I know have had sex because it would have been 'unacceptable' not to somehow, given how 'events' had unfolded. 'Events' I now realise, deftly manipulated to get us in just that situation where we would be too 'well conditioned' to behave be able to get out of. I would never have considered these assaults of any kind until now.

I'm now wondering how the legal definition of rape affects our understanding of what actually constitutes rape. Clearly those type of situations would not conform to the legal definition of rape, yet many would be so coercive as to be morally rape, in my mind at least. And yet I'm only starting to think this after reading this thread (and blackcurrants' links) and thinking about it.

I would never have felt that the men who orchestrated these situations were to blame to anywhere near that extent, but I've realised that they target vulnerable individuals and coerce them deliberately. (Although of course our society has taught them that that's what women are for.)

I wonder if the legal definition of rape actually reduces our perception of rape in that its only a very limited range of circumstances that rape can be deemed to occur. Not just the obvious bias against women in the courtroom and with stereotypes, but in a more insidious way, that the definition is also blind to the societal context and required behaviours that make up women's lived experiences IYSWIM.

So that coercion into sex isn't a crime even when you have no choice and we are blind to the power differential involved in so many of these situations. Its like the definition is so narrow so as to exclude all types of coercive behaviour from the definition (as well the more obvious problem that it excludes most overtly threat/violent rapes in practice.)

It is like the definition of rape has been designed to allow men sexual access to women when women are not willing.

I suppose that's a rape culture.

Molesworth · 20/04/2010 20:13

BDSM, Clarissimo, Kinderella, everyone - so sad - and angry - for you

I am going to read the Shapely Prose piece posted upthread. Also been reading this excellent post from Melissa McEwan at Shakesville: Rape Culture 101

BelleDameSansMerci · 20/04/2010 13:02

I had a rather nasty experience when I was nine years old (thank you paternal grandfather - may you rot in hell) and I suspect that my erstwhile somewhat promiscuous nature is largely as a result of this. I didn't realise it was a known effect. I feel a lot better knowing that...

BelleDameSansMerci · 20/04/2010 12:47

namechange I don't think anyone would consider you releasing stuff on here as derailing. I hope you'll find nothing but care, support and, where we can, help here. I don't think anyone who has a heart could possibly not want to help you.

Clarissimo · 20/04/2010 11:02

Itsmynamechange {hugs}

I as raped by a boyfriend once that was enough to mess me up for years I think (and groped by someone when I was never been kissed 16 year old, actually I think that did more dmaage but I was spectacularly naive)

I think you are doing really well to have moved forwards at all, you should be rpud ofn yourself. Well done.

Itsmynamechange · 20/04/2010 10:19

Tortoise - that would explain a lot for me too. I had a one nighter with a sort friend not long after I split up with bf. It was the first time I had sex without pain. I then went through a number of partners . Looking back it wasn't fantastic sex but it didn't HURT - it was a revelation. Even though doggy hurt the most, I would 'choose' to do it that way so I could scream & cry into the pillows and not put ex-bf off his stroke.

Luckily DH is incredibly sensitive to my needs re. consent/pain during sex and will always check that I am ok with whatever we do.

The only serious row we have had was at the beginning of our relationship. I was drunk and went along with DH even though I didn't want to. We stopped half way through as I started to cry. He was so upset I had treated him as though he was ex-bf and had thought him capable of forcing me to have sex. I had always capitulated with ex-bf as I was worried if I refused he would just assualt me in my sleep. Not that stopped him but I did what I could to minimise the risk of it.

This tread is very cathartic for me. Sorry if I'm derailing a very valid and necessary thread.

KinderellaTristabelle · 20/04/2010 08:39

So sorry to hear of your experiences, Lutyens and namechange.

Thanks for those links blackcurrants. They are so spot on. That's really important information.

Jesus tortoise, I never heard of that before. That explains a lot for me personally. Sorry to hear that ladybiscuit.

This thread has raised a lot of issues for me as I'm sure it has for a lot of people.

There is something else I'd like to add, but I need to think about first. I've had a lot of experiences which were probably assault or rape and never realised until just now. (In addition to those I did know about. ) Or maybe they weren't? I need to think about this, but I will come back.

A really, really important thread.