asking for it?

They make her think it's okay to make that 'choice' when it goes against family values. Sick, sick people.

For a start they'll teach her about masculine/feminine stereotypes, and she'll end up thinking she's only good enough to be someone's wife.

Well I can appreciate that. They might catch straight. Innocent children shouldn't be exposed to such things.

It works for me. I don't mind hetereosexuals, but I don't really want them teaching my kid.

What screaminEagle said. I appreciate I may not have been as together in my explanation but it's basically what i meant.

Gay40 it may be the way forward.

So....in that most rapists are men, and most child abusers are men, and the amount of threads on MN about lazy/abusive/substandard husbands and boyfriends, the only answer really is to be a lesbian.
Simples.

And fathers.

(You warm my cockles, Cheerful, you do)

My DS is almost 3, and already has been taught that he must never hurt anyone, especially someone smaller or unable to defend themselves. He also knows that his body is his own and if someone touches it in a way he doesn't like, he can tell them to stop, and if they don't he needs to tell right away. Conversely he knows that he should never touch anyone in a way they don't like, which I sincerely hope is a lesson he carries into adulthood. When he is old enough I plan to give him the vague outline of my own rape and the devastation it has caused me, so that he knows that having sex with a woman too drunk to move is rape, and it is not a joke.

We need a campaign...mothers all over the world need to be teaching their sons that this is not ok, instead of the attitudes you sometimes have of "well she's a slut, well she'd been drinking, my son's a man and men will..." etc.

But then all you're doing is directing a massive amount of energy into 'educating' women against what is actually a very small risk of rape (and again, it's not value neutral, it's a serious curtailment of freedom as compared to men) and ignoring a) the main areas of rape and again b) actual rapists.

I know there's an impulse to feel like, oh we can't do anything about most of this but aha, here's something we can do! But it's not that simple.

Those sorts of risk tip sheets
a- curtail freedoms
b- mean that when a woman does get raped in one of 'those' circumstances she is blamed
c- perpetuate the general idea that female behaviour can prevent rape
d- perpetuate the general idea that rape is usually by dark strangers in alleyways leaping out at unsuspecting young women, and therefore means that when a woman gets raped in other circumstances, it's not taken seriously either

And I do note that you're going back on yourself. You said earlier that 'some situations are more dangerous than others'. Do you mean 'walking alone at night' is more dangerous than being at home, or don't you? I'm up to the fourth time of asking this,now.

I'm fully aware that it is a serious minority of women who are raped in this way. I'm not suggesting that it is the norm. It is much the same with sexual crimes against children which often occur in the home not by boogy men in black cloaks. I know most rapes are not from strangers but ignoring that some do occur like this seems odd.

The information I posted was from a rape crises charity.

Lol at the wrong sauce though.

Okay, Soapbox, you've cut and pasted from the very type of thing we're arguing against.

Do you not believe Dittany when she says that sober women at home with trusted friends are most at risk? Because I can pull stats if it helps.

WHY do you think that a woman walking alone, carrying bags, etc., is most at danger? And why from strangers?

I know it feels like we're browbeating you. But this is the point - those sorts of 'safety tips' are spreading the myth that rape is a crime perpetuated by shadowy strangers late at night. And it's wrong wrong wrongity wrong with a helping of wrong sauce on top.

MillyR, thanks for clarifying your post, by the way. I had misread you as well, but I agree entirely with your latter post.

I'm not ignoring the realities of rape at all. I didn't say rape was flippant. You kept asking me to respond to your list when you knew fine well that it was not part of the 'type' of rape I was discussing. The media focuses in on this type of rape and that is what colours people views about it.

I've cut and paste this from RAINN. It's American but pretty much states what I've been trying to explain.

Avoiding Dangerous Situations

While you can never completely protect yourself from sexual assault, there are some things you can do to help reduce your risk of being assaulted.

• Be aware of your surroundings. Knowing where you are and who is around you may help you to find a way to get out of a bad situation.
• Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.
• Walk with purpose. Even if you don?t know where you are going, act like you do.
• Trust your instincts. If a situation or location feels unsafe or uncomfortable, it probably isn?t the best place to be.
• Try not to load yourself down with packages or bags as this can make you appear more vulnerable.
• Make sure your cell phone is with you and charged and that you have cab money.
• Don't allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don?t trust or someone you don?t know.
• Avoid putting music headphones in both ears so that you can be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you are walking alone.

I'm not blaming people for being raped. I just think that in some situations there are things that can help people stay safe.

Soapbox, I am really confused by your posts. You appear to be saying that (usual disclaimers in place) irrespective of the situations in which women actually get raped, we should educate women against undertaking the sorts of behaviours which make headlines and which cause people to say "she was asking for it". Like going to a footballer's room, or walking alone at night. IS that what you're saying?

I'm going to ask you for a third time: when you talk about 'accepting there are increased risks' and 'making yourself vulnerable' and 'certain situations' and 'educating women about how to keep themselves safe' - these are all direct quotes of yours-

• WHAT education? What are you suggesting that we educate women to do, or not to do? And how does that compare to dittany's list of actual rape-related 'risky behaviours'?

Oh God, this is depressing. If a woman is raped it is 100% the fault of the man. There are no extenuating circumstances or contributary factors to take into account.

I'm appalled by dittany's statistics. I had no idea that a disabled woman was at greater risk. It's makes me feel physically sick. The awful thing, though, is that when I actually really think about it, I'm not even surprised. No reason to assume that a man who would rape would give a shit about the victim's abilities.

And as for this idea that certain women are more likely to be raped - I don't think that's true at all. You only have to look at the stats to see that's not the case.

It's hard, though, to fight through all this shit. I was seriously sexually assaulted by someone I knew quite well. I didn't bother to report it because I had been at a party with him (and his wife) and other friends. He walked me the 50 yds or so to my hotel room (outside in the grounds of the hotel where the party was held) and forced himself into my room. Although I'd been drinking, I don't think it's my fault that when he held me where he wanted me he pulled my hair so hard that my head was still bleeding in the morning minus a big clump of hair. The only reason I wasn't raped was because he climaxed on my legs.

I do, however, blame my then best friend for behaving as if nothing had happened when I told her and for her quite clearly believing that I had been "asking for it".

Yes and we need to stop murders murdering and thieves stealing. That isn't going to happen tomorrow. I haven't answered your question because I believe that you are being flippent. None of the things in the list you made are generally the topics used to make headlines in the papers where a woman is suggested to have been part of the problem. These stories are a small slice of the bigger picture but they are usually what people discuss when these topics arise. They are what colours the general publics opinions. Just as the one story about a girl making a false alligation means that every other woman is making it up.

Take stories about girls in footballers hotels etc. Usually there will be some cry that they were asking for it because they went there. Well of course they weren't asking for it but there have been quite a few stories like this and many people would stay clear.

You have not answered my question. Do you think it is impossible to reduce you chances of being a victim of crime?

Dittany I don't understand why you think that you cannot put yourself at an increased risk of crime.

Yes the situations I am discussing are a very small section of the whole picture but they are still there. The crimes that are reported in the news tend to be these sensationalist types. Hence the OP. Shall I say it again for you since you seem to be unabe to hear me. I do not think that women's freedoms should be inhibited in any way.

The views of this entire planet need to change so that women are safer but you seem unable to even grasp that people have different views to your own. If you want things to change you need to take people like me with you.