Oxford university EBD Lecture

It is depressing, but I wonder why it produces such despair in you, since it is only one incident among many in the university sector? Is it the cache of its being an Oxford event? Oxbridge has never been immune from this kind of stupidity (or stupidity in general). I'm often surprised how parents posting on MN seem to overvalue Oxbridge.

I notice that last year's lecturer at this event was Jason Arday - Cambridge's own example of the failure to operate equality and diversity in a rigorous and actually helpful manner. So I'd see this particular event as just one more example of a university sector that has gone astray. Hopefully the Arday affair will be the beginning of a reckoning.

Edit: wrong thread

As JK observed - it’s the elite who have bought into this not the normal person
and that’s where it will take longer to turn

I really wouldn't worry.

It's one woman and her journey/thoughts/experience - which is quite an unusual one and so I imagine many people will be interested in listening to it.

I would find her story interesting although I wonder whether probing questions will be allowed or if it's just a talk/screened questions.

We shouldn't be afraid of people talking. We just want the same courtesy extended to people from other viewpoints in universities - without protests and demonstrations.

Yes, actually I agree, Ali. Looking a little at the speaker, it seems that they aren't actually even an academic, more of a professional speaker. So this can't be a very hardcore academic event. So perhaps we should feel able to relax a bit and just look for whatever is of interest in the speaker's presentation.

Yes, even without my glasses and a small picture, I saw a woman.

I need to step away at times too as it becomes too much. The juggernaut is turning, just very slowly.

I don't think girls and women who have had mastectomies, hormone treatment and other surgery are presenting as 'bright and sparkly' at all. I think many of these people have multiple physical and mental health issues - eating disorders included. Some may try to put on a brave face to try and convince themselves that everything in the garden is rosy - and I wonder if this is true for Schuyler, who would likely have been a very successful female athlete.

Edited to note that Schuyler was indeed a top female swimming athlete and would likely have continued to be very successful in this category.

There is also a much larger group that in school/university made social changes name pronouns) and style changes in hair, makeup and clothes and have (as you do as you get older and go into the workplace) changed this.

Well I learnt something from the talk summary - that "winningest" is an actual word, in actual dictionaries, and not just some idiot spewing nonsense. A Reddit thread pointing out that it sounds like random babble has some suggestions for related wordforms:

Winning, Winninger, Winningest.
Winningful.
Most Wonninged.
Winnifred.

Don't despair......turning this thing around was always a long term project. Havng become embedded in so many institutions, and especially in academia ( from where it originated) it has become part of the identity of many people. People have constructed their public personas on this stuff and others have made careers out of it.

This lecture looks like a side show - most likely only to be attended by those who are already committed or politically active.

I sense that 'trans' has already peaked and had its day. Identities are now being constructed around mental and physical ill health and/or disability of one sort or other, or around 'neuro-divergence'.

As a side note, I have become aware in recent weeks that 'goth' personas and fashions are making something of a come back.

Excellent to hear that Goth is having a revival.

Bring back mods and rockers, let's have some more punk or glam rock.

Looking at Schuyler’s Wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

it’s obvious that a promising career as a woman unsurprisingly stopped dead on transitioning. Then all that appears after that is a third best and something won by a team Schuyler was in.

So Schuyler is flying the flag for “inclusion” policies that Schuyler is personally disadvantaged by. That’s dedication to the cause.

First trans man I’ve seen on the men’s team but according to that Wikipedia page her amazing wins go to top 15% and top 34% once she transitions. So a very good athlete competing against men but would have been outstanding against women.

Agree I’m not too worried that she is speaking. We have never wanted to gag trans activists, only to preserve women’s spaces and rights.

So Schuyler is flying the flag for “inclusion” policies that Schuyler is personally disadvantaged by. That’s dedication to the cause.

There are very few lists of sporting TiFs, the lists themselves are short, they almost all feature the same few individuals, who mostly were/are not actually involved in competitive sport.

What is also notable is that they are almost all trans activists who have set up in business as "inspirational speakers" or who are employed full or part time by trans activist organisations as "Ambassadors".

Schuyler is typical in monetising a sporting career cut short due to trans medicalisation.

One way of looking at it is, "Selling snake oil beats getting a proper job".

Another is that it is just another person joining the roster of motivational speakers capitalising on past success (sporting or otherwise) torpedoed by personal tragedy and/or self harm, all presented as overcoming adversity.

BlueLegume IMHO this is not first and foremost a "trans thing" in itself. It is in the same ballpark as speakers who proselytise about how "finding religion" or some New Age fad rescued them from the alcoholism, gambling mania, sex addiction (or whatever) that put paid to their previously successful career.

However . . .

Given my Username, you'll perhaps not be surprised that my main concern would be how any "non-affirming" questions or comments from the floor or on social media might in future be dealt with if reported to the Police or Social Services under the provisions of the Conversion Practices Draft Bill.

THIS is what I think we should be concerned about with events of this nature.

The Police are still recording "Non-Crime Hate Incidents" pending replacement of the NCHI system some time in 2027, they are just not investigating "trivial" complaints.

By the time that happens, if the Conversion Practices Draft Bill has been approved, passed through Parliament and enacted, we will be remembering NCHIs as the good old times before free speech was properly destroyed by this backdoor Trans Blasphemy Law.

This is not hyperbole. If you don't believe me, read the Draft Bill and the Explanatory Notes:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-conversion-practices-bill

Anyone already involved with the Family Court or criminal proceedings needs to be particularly concerned about malicious reports.

Explanatory Notes

27. Subsection (2) establishes the definition of a “conversion practice”. It specifies that a conversion practice is any conduct undertaken with the intention either of causing an individual to have or not have a sexual orientation or transgender identity, or of making them believe that they have or do not have a sexual orientation or transgender identity.

28. The definition applies where the person carrying out the conversion practice had a particular outcome in mind, for example, where the person intended to cause an individual to have or not have a particular sexual orientation. It also applies where the person did not have a particular outcome in mind. That means it applies where, for example, an individual identifies as a lesbian and a person intended to ensure they did not identify that way, although they did not intend to make them believe they had another specific sexual orientation such as heterosexual or bisexual.

29. The definition also includes conduct that was intended to make an individual believe they have or do not have a sexual orientation or transgender identity, even if the person did not intend to cause the individual to in actual fact have or not have a sexual orientation or transgender identity. This also means that it does not matter whether the person carrying out the conversion practice believed their act would in fact cause a person to have or not have (or believe they have or do not have) a sexual orientation or transgender identity. It also does not matter if the person carrying out the conversion practice is mistaken as to an individual’s actual sexual orientation or transgender identity.

30. Paragraph 2 specifies how a conversion practice protection order can be applied for or made.

31. Paragraph 2(1) sets out that a court may make a conversion practice protection order:

• (a) after an application is made to it by a specific person or body; or
• (b) without an application having been made, during ongoing legal proceedings (if the conditions of paragraph 2(5), as set out below, are met).

63. Paragraph 2(2) lists three categories of person who can make an application for a conversion practice protection order without requiring the permission of the court to do so. These are:

• (a) the individual who is to be protected from abusive conversion practices;
• (b) a chief officer of police (as defined in paragraph 2(6)); or
• (c) a local authority (as defined in paragraph 2(6)).

64. Paragraph 2(3) specifies that it is also possible for persons not listed in sub-paragraph 2 to make an application to the court for a conversion practice protection order if they are given permission to do so by the court.

65. Paragraph 2(4) sets out that, in deciding whether to grant such leave the court must have regard to “all the circumstances” including, but not limited to, the applicant’s connection to the individual that needs protecting, and/or applicant’s knowledge of the circumstances of that individual.

66. Paragraph 2(5) specifies the circumstances in which a court can choose to make an order without receiving an application asking it to do so:

• (a) where there are existing family proceedings before the family court or the Family Division of the High Court.
• (b) where the court considers that a protection order should be made to protect an individual. That individual does not need to be involved in the proceedings under consideration.
• (c) where the person receiving the order (the respondent) is a party to the current proceedings.

67. This means that, for instance, if a court is already hearing a “family proceeding” (such as a case regarding child arrangements or divorce proceedings) and evidence emerges that an individual is at risk of an abusive conversion practice, the court can issue a conversion practice protection order without a separate application being made.

It is staggering unlikely that there would a successful criminal prosecution against someone saying something "non affirming" from the floor or on social media about the Oxford presentation or the presenter. Or making any other expression of belief, such as holding a placard or wearing an item of clothing displaying a "non-affirming" message in text or as a logo.

Similarly, it is highly unlikely that it would result in the Family Court ordering a child to be taken into care as a result or in placing restrictions on someone, eg. that they must not engage in any similar public conduct in future.

However, the fact that these are possibilities and that there may be unsuccessful prosecutions and applications to the Family Court are what matter.

As ever, "The Process Is The Punishment" and justifiable fear of the Process is what is intended as the way to ensure that everyone is silent and unprotesting under the boot on our necks.

We must fight back and this is very urgent - there is very little time left to get this Draft Bill binned!

https://linktr.ee/binthebill

Little anecdote that may bring you cheer. My DD's friend at an Oxford college (not a particularly traditional one either) that shall remain nameless😁, gave out lanyards to put a door fobs etc on; they came in 2 sorts trad college colours & progress colours. The progress remained untouched.
The kids are mostly alright.
Much eyerolling according to dd at her own college at the alphabetty crew - and wide berths given to males larping at females, and pity for the NB TIFS.
Young people are so over the bullshit. DD says the NB/Tifs at her college are autistic (they've said) and luckily no TIMS.

I wouldn't be so disheartened OP. I've read about this person and I'm sure they have an interesting story to tell but they have grown up in a place and time where gender transition was easy, unproblematic and even encouraged. I don't think we are in the same place now and I don't think most people would want to emulate this progression from eating disorder to transition either. I also think the speaking opportunities available of this kind are getting to be fewer and fewer.