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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Erosion of Boundaries leading to Safeguarding Issues

12 replies

WearyAuldWumman · 16/10/2026 17:29

Have just seen this article in the Courier.

One of the comments points out that Fife Council is guilty of eroding the normal distance between staff and pupils by requiring staff to share facilities with pupils.

(It doesn't excuse the behaviour of the assistant, but it may explain to an extent why a particularly dim-witted man used to urinals might not see a problem with it.)

However, I would say that Fife Council has eroded the normal boundaries in existence between staff and pupils by initially telling some staff that they should be using the same facilities as pupils in new build schools.

Teaching staff complained and the professional associations claimed that nothing could be done.

I have relatives who are currently pupils in Fife high schools. In some schools, the HT simply solved the problem by designating one block as being single sex toilets for staff only.

In one of them, however, the accessible toilets have signs saying that they're 'all gender toilets', available for use by anyone and staff have been told to use these if they don't want to share a toilet block with pupils. This is making it harder for staff and pupils with disabilities to access a toilet when required - typically, there's one accessible toilet in a corridor.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/5599688/glenrothes-pupil-support-assistant-urinated-same-room-as-child/#Echobox=1792162103

Glenrothes pupil support assistant urinated in same room as child

Steve McGrouther was employed by Fife Council at the time.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/5599688/glenrothes-pupil-support-assistant-urinated-same-room-as-child/

OP posts:
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 16/10/2026 20:09

Thanks for the link, it's definitely not ok to pee in front of a child you are supposed to be taking care of, it suggests a slap dash familiarity that is not acceptable from a carer.

I'll have to work up to having sympathy for the teachers in Fife Schools, the education system is ground zero for the batshittery, maybe having to share the same facilities as pupils is what they should have expected when they decided to promote an ideology that's all about getting rid of boundaries.

Keeptoiletssafe · 16/10/2026 20:36

Horrendous.

A lot of the research I did at the beginning was due to the stories coming out from schools with weird mixed sex toilet designs. Children have been the guinea pigs for designs that wouldn’t pass normal building regulations.

WearyAuldWumman · 16/10/2026 21:07

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 16/10/2026 20:09

Thanks for the link, it's definitely not ok to pee in front of a child you are supposed to be taking care of, it suggests a slap dash familiarity that is not acceptable from a carer.

I'll have to work up to having sympathy for the teachers in Fife Schools, the education system is ground zero for the batshittery, maybe having to share the same facilities as pupils is what they should have expected when they decided to promote an ideology that's all about getting rid of boundaries.

You think the ordinary teachers are promoting it? They're really not. It's down to some of the councillors, two or three HTs and one bloke who won kudos for pushing it in one particular school out of the 17 secondary schools in Fife.

The facilities in the new builds are mostly fine. The problem is that the blooming sinks are open to the corridors - causing problems for girls and women. Also, historically for obvious reasons, staff and pupils were always expected to have separate facilities.

Children really do not want members of staff using the same facilities as pupils.

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AMansAManForAllThat · 16/10/2026 21:19

I hated using the same facilities as the children. It meant there was nowhere to shelter, no liminal space to check everything was as it should be. You know that moment when you take a couple of steps and feel a little ‘off’, then realise your skirt is rucked up at the back, or there’s paper stuck to your shoe… that usually happens within a safe space. Not in public. It’s bad enough feeling vulnerable in front of adults who understand professional boundaries. In front of children? Awful.

WearyAuldWumman · 16/10/2026 21:34

Keeptoiletssafe · 16/10/2026 20:36

Horrendous.

A lot of the research I did at the beginning was due to the stories coming out from schools with weird mixed sex toilet designs. Children have been the guinea pigs for designs that wouldn’t pass normal building regulations.

Agreed.

I think that BAM built most of the secondary school new builds in Fife. They initially posted pictures of the toilet facilities in the schools, but those were pulled after people realised that there was a problem with the open plan sinks. The toilet blocks look like normal toilet blocks and a bonus is that there are many more of them than you used to get in schools, but the open plan sinks are not good for girls or women.

I know of a situation where a member of staff had rushed to the loo because of endo and then found her male HT standing just over the line (where an outer wall and door should have been) trying to ask about a school matter whilst she was trying to wash and dry her hands in peace.

There's also the top to bottom cubicles that have been installed to mitigate the problem caused by the lack of a door to the sink area. As you've mentioned in other threads, the lack of a gap can be a health and safety issue.

I think I'm right in saying that all the Dunfermline secondary schools are now new builds. Two girls in one of them actually went to the press to complain about the existence of single sex toilets triggering their dysphoria: one claimed to be a trans boy and the other to be non-binary.

Following that, another school in the area went to great lengths to advertise that they were giving their pupils a choice between single-sex and gender neutral. It featured in articles in the local press.

I'll add here that most teaching staff in Fife are in the EIS - which seems pretty much captured so far as representation is concerned, to my mind. Most of the others are in the SSTA. Both these professional associations said that nothing could be done about the new builds.

I've just found this within an NAS/UWT document: "The School Premises (General Requirements and Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1967 • In every school, accommodation (including cloakroom and sanitary accommodation) shall be provided for staff."

I'm betting that Fife is arguing that they've done what they had to - they provided accommodation. No mention of separate accommodation in the regulations, though that's what everyone has always understood.

https://nasuwt.org.uk/static/afddfe59-abb3-4d36-a655b3fc133a4650/School-Toilet-Facilities-Campaign-Toolkit.pdf

https://nasuwt.org.uk/static/afddfe59-abb3-4d36-a655b3fc133a4650/School-Toilet-Facilities-Campaign-Toolkit.pdf

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Keeptoiletssafe · 16/10/2026 21:47

The case that is most relevant to you discusses the basin problem. It is useful as it’s a Scottish case but does discuss the Equality Act too.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/media/mv5d53jw/2026csoh52-petition-of-de-and-fg-against-west-lothian-council.pdf

The Department for Education (England) design guidelines have changed in 2026 and it appears these designs would no longer be permitted in the separate ‘suites’.

Grammarnut · 16/10/2026 22:58

WearyAuldWumman · 16/10/2026 21:07

You think the ordinary teachers are promoting it? They're really not. It's down to some of the councillors, two or three HTs and one bloke who won kudos for pushing it in one particular school out of the 17 secondary schools in Fife.

The facilities in the new builds are mostly fine. The problem is that the blooming sinks are open to the corridors - causing problems for girls and women. Also, historically for obvious reasons, staff and pupils were always expected to have separate facilities.

Children really do not want members of staff using the same facilities as pupils.

Willing to bet if men designed this layout they have no idea why open to the corridor sinks might be a problem for women and girls. If women designed the layout they really ought to know better.

Keeptoiletssafe · 16/10/2026 23:34

It’s men. Many different men over the years that have promoted these designs. I have the receipts.

WearyAuldWumman · Yesterday 00:06

The Fife schools do have the toilet blocks as single sex, but the issue is that you can see right into the single sex sink area from the corridor - supposedly it stops bullying and vandalism. It doesn't.

I'm no longer on the teaching register, but I did a brief supply stint last year. Boys had discovered how to open the cubicle doors from the outside. Their victims had been other boys, but the design meant that as soon as the cubicle door was open it was quite possible for the person inside to be seen from the corridor.

The cubicle locks were in the process of being changed to a type which could only be accessed by a janitor. (The boys had discovered that you only needed to use a coin - the same type of lock used for accessible toilets at home.)

In another school, the architects had produced a design where you could see into a P.E. department set of toilets from the snazzy light well between two rooms above.

No one spotted the problem until the school was built and the kids started laughing about it. The SLT called them in to point out the flaw. I believe that the remedy was supposed to be frosted film.

OP posts:
moto748e · Yesterday 00:29

Grammarnut · 16/10/2026 22:58

Willing to bet if men designed this layout they have no idea why open to the corridor sinks might be a problem for women and girls. If women designed the layout they really ought to know better.

You'd hope that the toilets would be designed by professionals who would make sure their designs complied with all relevant legislation. But evidently, not.

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 00:32

There’s supposed to be no such thing as a lockable toilet cubicle as it’s a safety measure when pupils collapse. The doors also have to be able to come off easily or be able to be changed so they open outwards. This is because pupils typically fall against the door.

Staff need to know how to open cubicles if it’s not a simple coin turn. Minutes spent trying to work out the mechanism can change outcomes.

Of course, knowing someone has collapsed inside the cubicle/room isn’t possible in a mixed sex open plan space because of the extra privacy required.

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 00:39

moto748e · Yesterday 00:29

You'd hope that the toilets would be designed by professionals who would make sure their designs complied with all relevant legislation. But evidently, not.

Believe it or not, these private mixed sex cubicles in to an open plan mixed sex wash basin area were signed off by the DfE etc. Because of a weird exclusion, schools were exempt from 1992 legislations and had lesser health and safety regulations in their designs than other workplaces. A couple of decades ago the same ‘unisex’ designs were prohibited due to privacy for girls and also religious reasons - then it all went a bit mad until this year. Parents and girls said it wouldn’t work years ago - consistently they have been proved right.

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