Internalised misogyny examples please

Yes. Dismissing women as frivolous and silly because they adhere to socialised norms that are deeply ingrained into society would be misogynistic.

But believing that many indicators of femininity are actually (some of) the methods by which women are oppressed isn't misogynistic, imo. I think it should be possible to criticise socially constructed expressions of femininity and explore what they're rooted in, and what impact they have, without being accused of suffering from internalised misogyny by 'choice feminists'.

Make-up makes women feel insecure about themselves; they're making a choice or a statement if they choose not to wear make-up in certain situations – they're being brave. The implication is that a woman's natural face is not good enough on its own, in situations where a man's is. Not only that, but the belief that women need to be ornamental, and men don’t. There's also the added expense of make-up, which is often an expectation rather than a true choice, and the mental white noise of living in a society where just wearing your natural face can be controversial.

Of course, then it can be wielded against women – for wearing too much make-up, for wearing it poorly, or for ‘tricking’ men by wearing it.

Capitalism confounds it slightly, because more and more, skin care etc is being marketed towards men. But ultimately, in our modern society, make-up being feminine-coded is used as a way to control and police women, and create self-consciousness and insecurity amongst the majority.

Skirts? Well, they’re not innately misogynistic, but they do restrict movement, and discourage activity in girls. They make upskirting by creeps possible, they’re fetishised as uniform items, they blow up in the wind, they are rolled by school girls to self-sexualise, they make physical activity more difficult (as mentioned) – but there are times when a light, breezy skirt is more comfortable for most people than shorts or trousers.

So as a socially pressured sign of femininity that’s pushed on girls, skirts are arguably a tool of misogyny, even though as a free choice they can be practical for men and women.

Anyway, my point was more just that being critical of current social aspects of 'femininity' isn't necessarily 'internalised misogyny'. There can be good reasons to be critical of 'femininity' as constructed and expressed in a patriarchal society.

I suppose if you were to think less of women for being concerned with their appearance and other frivolous things rather than recognising they are the product of sexism within the society in which they and we live, that would be misogynistic.

You would be taking on the Patriachal idea that "women are silly fluffy things who only care about pink and frills and makeup" rather than the Feminst recognition that women are complete human beings with as much depth, complexity, variety and potential as men, who differ to men in the realm of frills and makeup not because they are innately frivolous but because they have been formed just as men are by their social context and expectations placed upon them, and within that are reacting in rational ways.

A memory from long, long ago, & perhaps relevant to other debates…

I am bisexual & was aware of it fairly early. Being RC & celibate though it was all academic (until it wasn’t).

In a cuddle with a woman I had a massive crush on (same background as me) she said “I suppose with a woman it wouldn’t really count”.

Bit of a turn-off. I thought it would count, & I very much wanted it to.

That seems like internalised misogyny to me.

But attempting to make sense of it: would not accepting or liking femininity, in a male or female, be a form of internalised misogyny?

Only if you are sexist enough to believe expressing "femininity" is the essential and fundamental quality of womanhood, the reason a social group of people called "women" even exists, so much so that a man who has this quality is truthfully a woman 😂

The Genderist in question undoubably believes (claims to believe) this is indeed what a woman is. But that just makes them a sexist twunt.

It is, of course, important to try to make sense of opposing arguments. But it is also important to have enough confidence in ones own intelliegence (and indeee ones own experience of ones own life) to recognise when there is no underlying sense, no coherent world view being expressed. When it's literally just spraying any old bollocks around trying to score points or twist something said into something that can be misrepresented as a reason to reject the whole argument.

Because honestly, when you look properly at any Genderist argument, they got nothing. There is lliterally no more to any of this than sexism, emotional blackmail and accusations of "transphobia" to avoid having to make a clear case for why a women's sex doesn't matter as much as men's sense of self.

There are literally hundreds of examples in posts on here over the years

Personally, I lean towards much of social 'femininity' being the method by which women's oppression is enacted and reinforced in society; femininity as a practice is a way of directing and controlling women's presentation and behaviour in ways that benefit the patriarchy or disadvantage women.

So I'm not particularly in favour of much of what is considered 'femininity', and yet I am not suffering from 'internalised misogyny' - my opinions are based in feminist thought.

Similar to when they accuse you of bio essentialism when that’s exactly what gender is.

Oh god, is that the one who thinks women recognising that our own choices are affected by our experiences of living as a female person rather than a male one mean we think women don't have our own minds? Yeah, that one just throws words around. Don't look for coherent meaning (even if it's factually or logocally wrong) underneath, it's literally all surface flailing.

Or is it the one who thinks recognising that we are on average less physically strong or as fast as men is having a misgynst view of women? That one I'm never sure if they are naive enough to believe it, or just like to spray shit over threads.

Either way, those ones are talking bollocks.

If you said something like "nature designed women different to men, she designed us to stay at home and have babies and wear pink, and that's what women should be doing and why trans women can't be women" then the TRA might have a point - I'm sure you didn't though. 😂

To add to the FGM one:
Thinking that women’s body hair and periods are ‘dirty’

When women refer to themselves as "cis women", thereby relegating themselves to a subset of the category "woman" and allowing some men into that category too

So you can answer your op then??

It's a subconscious response to the patriarchy where you absorb sexist beliefs and apply them to other women.

E.g. my mother being annoyed that my brother's girlfriend didn't iron his shirt. Or ...My mother commenting that a family member is a "good girl" because they're doing the caring responsibilities for elderly family members, when they're actually just in relationships with the men who are related to the elderly woman in question.

I could write a huge list based on my mother!

This isn’t internalised misogyny this is unconscious bias or just general misogyny.

Internalised misogyny would be something like a woman thinking that other women wearing make-up is shallow.

Internalised meams they grow up with ideas of women’s place in society without realising there is anything sexist about it.

Like the yummy mummies who think nothing of doing all the domestics (even though they work), whilst their husbands sit on their arse and do nothing because they think that’s the natural order of things.

Like people who automatically think of a man if you say the word doctor or engineer.

Like schools who will always ring and interrupt the mother at work first, rather than the dad.

Like people who think we should ‘be kind’ or ‘shouldn’t make a fuss’ because it’s not ‘natural’ for women to be angry, political or self serving.

etc etc

That’s misandry isn’t it?

Ah, to clarify, to be (internalised) misogyny it would have to be sexist beliefs towards women.

In a more general sense, it's just sexism done by women rather than men.

Plenty of women believe that women's needs should be put aside to support their man. Plenty of women would consider a woman "pushy" or "dominating" when that same behaviour in a man isn't even noticed. Plenty of women judge a woman spending time on work or hobbies rather than childcare when they would not judge a man. Plenty of women think women's sexuality is icky or dirty if not directed to a monogamous partner - see the current Swingers thread!