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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Amid myriad crises, Stormont is spending three days debating if someone can invent their own gender

9 replies

IwantToRetire · Yesterday 19:29

NB - extracts only

... The bill would place “gender identity” in Northern Ireland’s criminal law for the first time, but doesn’t define it beyond saying that it is “what the victim considers it to be” and “what the [defendant] considers it to be”.

Essentially, the bill leaves the issue of gender wholly subjective. As well as male and female, an individual could claim to be anything under the sun, and if someone sought to “suppress” that, they could be in trouble with the law.

In relation to gender identities already in use, DUP MLA Brian Kingston claimed there were 72 genders. Party colleague Deborah Erskine said she believed there could be more than 100. Buckley said it could be 136.

The most extraordinary aspect of the Assembly proceedings was an attempt to shut down debate on this aspect of the bill. When Tennyson was asked how many genders it would cover, he wasn’t allowed to either answer the question or refuse to answer.

Instead, principal deputy speaker Carál Ní Chuilín interjected to block the question. The veteran Sinn Féin MLA said that “to pre-empt a raft of questions”, she wanted to make clear that the bill defined gender as “what the victim considers it to be” and so “it is not for Eóin Tennyson or anyone else to talk about how many genders there are”.

This is a deeply problematic way in which to make criminal law. If someone is potentially going to be jailed for two years — as they could be under this bill — they surely have a right to know what gender even means.

If gender involves something amorphous which is beyond definition, then do we want the courts to be jailing people in this area and can the courts realistically enforce such legislation? Suppressing such questions in a legislature is indefensible. ...

To read the article in full go to https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/amid-myriad-crises-stormont-is-spending-three-days-debating-if-someone-can-invent-their-own-gender/a/162151085.html

And also https://archive.is/i4R8O

OP posts:
WearyAuldWumman · Yesterday 19:31

Oh dear.

Mind you, there might be a positive outcome if it shows how ridiculous this all is.

akkakk · Yesterday 20:03

the more ridiculous law is - the easier it can be to appeal it - it is why law is a combination of statue books and case law

singthing · Yesterday 20:37

Well, if there is ever one place you want ambiguity and lack of definition, it is the law.

And especially when the law in question relies precisely on what exactly words mean in order to judge whether it has been broken or not. Vagueness and lack of clarity really help with this.

Sounds like a winner! Is it sponsored by a collective of Irish lawyers or something? They're going to make a killing off it!

JellySaurus · Yesterday 23:04

What a bizarre waste of time and resources. Why on earth would a government debate passing law on anything so ill-defined?

IwantToRetire · Yesterday 23:20

JellySaurus · Yesterday 23:04

What a bizarre waste of time and resources. Why on earth would a government debate passing law on anything so ill-defined?

Because it is part of the Conversion Practices (Criminalisation) Bill which will also be happening in the House of Commons.

So absolutely central to the campaigning around that.

OP posts:
DisappearingGirl · Yesterday 23:33

Being old enough to remember the Troubles in Northern Ireland and Gerry Adams' voice not being allowed to be broadcast on TV etc, there's something a bit surreal about Sinn Féin and the DUP arguing about how many genders there are.

Also isn't this argument a bit 2019?

Soldierwam · Yesterday 23:35

DisappearingGirl · Yesterday 23:33

Being old enough to remember the Troubles in Northern Ireland and Gerry Adams' voice not being allowed to be broadcast on TV etc, there's something a bit surreal about Sinn Féin and the DUP arguing about how many genders there are.

Also isn't this argument a bit 2019?

I agree. It’s almost funny

DisappearingGirl · Yesterday 23:38

You can almost imagine it as a Father Ted episode

JellySaurus · Today 01:12

IwantToRetire · Yesterday 23:20

Because it is part of the Conversion Practices (Criminalisation) Bill which will also be happening in the House of Commons.

So absolutely central to the campaigning around that.

How can something indefinable be debated or legislated?

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