Some clarity in how the trans movement became so embedded, so preeminent

Femininity and masculinity are basically the same thing as sexist stereotypical tropes. But that doesn't make them any less worthy of discussion and analysis.

Is there something in the idea that (some) women's rage against transwomen is not just for logical and practical reasons, and not just because 'womanface' is misogynistic mocking women, but that it is to do with men transgressing the boundaries of stereotypical femininity in a socially-unacceptable taboo busting way?

'the real problem is & has always been the association of femininity with women particularly one of the sexual kind. And that's why gender critical 'feminists' only reserve their viciously mocking rage for trans women not trans men.
I strongly suspect that at the very bottom of this pot is a deep resentment that's directed at trans women as a proxy for feminine expression. They can't direct it at women in general because that's not gonna fly support wise so the whipping boy it is.'

I can discuss that, StandingDeskDisco.

I'm entirely ambivalent about men wearing women's clothes. Gender non conformity is grand. Fine. Go for it.

What is NOT tickety boo is transvestic fetishism. For one, these men are misogynists, often getting kicks from the non consensual participation of others. For two, their kicks rely on a pornified, damaging, and insulting caricature of 'femininity' that contributes to rape culture.

Greer described how 'the female eunuch' (an embodiment of 'femininity') was a third entity, not in fact even distantly related to women, but sharing some of the same characteristics as a child. We can see that in some of the gross costumes these men wear. Paraphilias are damaging to individuals and society.

Femininity and masculinity are basically the same thing as sexist stereotypical tropes. But that doesn't make them any less worthy of discussion and analysis.

Is there something in the idea that (some) women's rage against transwomen is not just for logical and practical reasons, and not just because 'womanface' is misogynistic mocking women, but that it is to do with men transgressing the boundaries of stereotypical femininity in a socially-unacceptable taboo busting way?

I'm entirely ambivalent about men wearing women's clothes. Gender non conformity is grand. Fine. Go for it.

I am the same. But many women, many people, are not. Mainstream society doesn't like taboo transgressors. Witness the moral outrage when punks appeared.
Transwomen coming into the office dressed as 3rd rate hookers are vomit-inducing, I'm sure we all agree. But what about those transwomen who come in wearing skirts, frilly white blouses, and pearls?
I have read the opinion expressed here on MN that all transwomen are offensive and that men should not be allowed to wear women's clothes in public. That poster was shot down in flames, because this is a 'socially liberal' board, but I am sure the sentiment is widespread out there in society.

it is to do with men transgressing the boundaries of stereotypical femininity in a socially-unacceptable taboo busting way?

What do you mean? I like Robert Smith, who wears make up. I liked Bowie in make up. Is that what you mean? Can you be more specific?

As I have said via a Mia Hughes quote - Trans is an overvalued belief.

If you are asking whether part of the Feminist objection to sexualised womanface is that it reduces the full complexity of half the human race into the sexualised construct imposed onto us by men to externalise their sexual responses by making us the signifier of their own sexuality (cf all those cartoons where a male character pouts and bats his lashes and his antagonist forgets everything but the "girl"), then yes. Obviously. We don't like to be reduced to that, and a man claiming adopting it makes him us reduces us just as much as any man telling us this is how he sees us.

If you are asking whether we want to preserve sexualised stereotypes of womanhood as just for us and get angry when men are on "our turf" or allowed to be the sluts we feel we cannot be, then no. Men are welcome to all these things, in fact I embrace and welcome men feeling able to widen their available expressions. They just don't get to claim to be women, or even just be a bit closer to women, or to represent something that is true of women, or by pretendibg they have our bodies make those statements physically, while they do it. Because that's just boring old fucking sexism.

See my reply to @ArabellaScott : Bowie is an icon now / was a national treasure, but when he and gender-bending performers like him first appeared, the small-c conservative mainstream were non-plussed, wary, hostile, or downright outraged.

Moral panic manufactured by red-top papers would gain no traction if there was not already an underlying psychological pre-disposition for people to reject transgressors and taboo-breakers.
I am wondering if these same psychological factors are at work in the way some non-liberal women are vehemently anti-transwomen today, because they are trampling all over women's ownership of femininity.

Some men find 'transwomen' sexually exciting. I understand this perfectly well.

Feminists would be more than delighted if the men who are attracted to transwomen would go off and have fun with the transwomen who are attracted to men and leave us all the fuck alone, I promise you.

See my reply to @ArabellaScott : Bowie is an icon now / was a national treasure, but when he and gender-bending performers like him first appeared, the small-c conservative mainstream were non-plussed, wary, hostile, or downright outraged.

Moral panic manufactured by red-top papers would gain no traction if there was not already an underlying psychological pre-disposition for people to reject transgressors and taboo-breakers.
I am wondering if these same psychological factors are at work in the way some non-liberal women are vehemently anti-transwomen today, because they are trampling all over women's ownership of femininity.

See my reply to @ArabellaScott : Bowie is an icon now / was a national treasure, but when he and gender-bending performers like him first appeared, the small-c conservative mainstream were non-plussed, wary, hostile, or downright outraged.

Moral panic manufactured by red-top papers would gain no traction if there was not already an underlying psychological pre-disposition for people to reject transgressors and taboo-breakers.
I am wondering if these same psychological factors are at work in the way some non-liberal women are vehemently anti-transwomen today, because they are trampling all over women's ownership of femininity.

Right. 'Transphobia' as a reaction to men subverting gender norms exists, sure. Rooted in homophobia and macho culture. You'll not find much of that on a feminist board.

The main thrust of my thread before it became a bigger free for all with the contributions of the anti-GC faction, was how there is so much cross over with the race aspect.
Whether we're talking about the IOC and FIFA outlawing gender testing and bending testosterone rules to primarily favour African DSD male athletes in the female category.
Or the HIV industry via activist NGOs push for third genders and TIM sex workers to be brought into the tent by pushing for such individuals to be recategorised as women.
The anti colonial/imperial, anti racist credentials of such policies are absolutely impeccable.
But because rights are not always an ever increasing spectrum where more come on board, noone has to budge up, noone else is co-opted. Because in the area of women's rights, only the diminution of women's rights can result if African DSD males are allowed in female athletics and football, and when the medical needs of a third gender or trans sex worker are somehow considered contiguous with those of women, then we see how the anti racist thing is now embedded into the TRA battle, at the expense of women.
And explains so much why the most recent cries from that side is about white women tone policing black women, and why GC is a continuation of the racist colonial imperial attitudes of the white West.
This frankly bonkers take, that had the West, primarily Britain not colonized so much of the rest of the world, lovely harmonious peoples in India etc that were fully trans-integrated wouldn't have had the MEN/WOMEN binary forced on them.
And thus today, if only those pesky GC hatemongers could stop trying to impose a fake sex binary, we could all welcome Caster and Imane and Prisca as proud sportswomen, and take third genders from the developing world to our hearts as downtrodden women in need of Western women's love and care.

The interuptaron talked about women who had this reaction, not men.
I understand men's transphobia / homophobia toward other men. I had not considered women's homophobia towards feminine-presenting men, because why would I or any other woman care? They have nothing to do with me.
Has women's transphobia / homophobia got different roots to men's? Is it about 'reserving femininity for women' ? Or something else?

(Apart from the already-much-discussed need to protect women's spaces, lesbian rights, misogynistic womanface, public decency re fetishists, etc.)

Of course it is not on this board, but it is out there among women in wider society.

Try 'man facing' with a butch lesbian. I dare you.

Hypocrite.

Femininity and masculinity are basically the same thing as sexist stereotypical tropes. But that doesn't make them any less worthy of discussion and analysis.

Is there something in the idea that (some) women's rage against transwomen is not just for logical and practical reasons, and not just because 'womanface' is misogynistic mocking women, but that it is to do with men transgressing the boundaries of stereotypical femininity in a socially-unacceptable taboo busting way?

'the real problem is & has always been the association of femininity with women particularly one of the sexual kind. And that's why gender critical 'feminists' only reserve their viciously mocking rage for trans women not trans men.
I strongly suspect that at the very bottom of this pot is a deep resentment that's directed at trans women as a proxy for feminine expression. They can't direct it at women in general because that's not gonna fly support wise so the whipping boy it is.'

I can discuss that, StandingDeskDisco.

I'm entirely ambivalent about men wearing women's clothes. Gender non conformity is grand. Fine. Go for it.

What is NOT tickety boo is transvestic fetishism. For one, these men are misogynists, often getting kicks from the non consensual participation of others. For two, their kicks rely on a pornified, damaging, and insulting caricature of 'femininity' that contributes to rape culture.

Greer described how 'the female eunuch' (an embodiment of 'femininity') was a third entity, not in fact even distantly related to women, but sharing some of the same characteristics as a child. We can see that in some of the gross costumes these men wear. Paraphilias are damaging to individuals and society.

I am not against the discussion.

My point is just as written. If someone considers a female person wearing trousers as being ‘masculine’ the discussion goes nowhere.

The same if someone considers wearing make up as being feminine. As Arabella points out, that is also not an issue for many people.

So what is it that you, personally, consider ‘feminine’?

Isn't it obvious? All the usual things that our society considers to be feminine, i.e. not masculine and not neutral.

I am talking mostly about clothes and appearance in the context of this thread, as that is the main visible signal that transwomen adopt, but it can also be hobbies, speech patterns, anything and everything.

One stereotype of a feminine woman is that she bakes cupcakes and puts them in a tin with a fancy floral pattern, then watches a 'chick-flick' on TV.
I am sure you know what I mean. I don't need to spell it out. The word has a common usage.

The interuptaron seemed (as far as I could make sense of the post) that the problem was that femininity was only associated with females, and that women are enraged by feminine-presenting men, or something like that. He hasn't returned to the thread.

No. It isn’t obvious to me.

Isn’t what you just described something like a tv show stereotype ? Do people believe that is ‘feminine’?