Dolly Parton apparently misguided on trans issues

There was literally an entire thread. It's the whole reason for this thread.

Most of the comments are variations on “does it matter?”, but I guess you see what you want.

In lieu of butter? Nothing needs to be in lieu of butter.

Butter, then jam, then cream.

Dolly was universally beloved but stood by her principles. She did more good in the world as a private citizen than probably anyone else ever - by quite some margin. But because she supported trans people, she's criticised. The brain rot here is quite something, Do better.

We don’t write songs.

There’s an impressive amount of mental gymnastics in this thread to explain how and why poor, silly old Dolly somehow got it all wrong about trans people, while the posters here with their apparently superior intellect understand the subject far better than she ever could.

Oh I did. You were saying that it was mainly women women abused by men who were against TIM in female spaces. I was just saying I was abused by a man. Who happened to be TI. I was agreeing with you.

I get it's disappointing, but that's the problem with putting someone on a pedestal.... then realising they're normal humans just like anyone else. It'll be weird to find someone who you agree with on everything wouldn't it? Why Dolly? Why not any other celeb? It's pretty much the view of all Hollywood, it's the exceptions that are surprising.

Leave intolerance for other people's views to the trans activists, they're really good at that.

Cream first obviously, in lieu of butter.

You need to re-read what I said.

I expect that Jolene is actually an allegory for Israel and the man who Dolly refers to is the Levant. The shining eyes & auburn hair are an obvious euphemism for white colonialism....or something.

As I said in the other thread, Dolly's support of "I just need to pee" was from 2015, before this had become associated with male rapists in women's prisons, child mutilation, men in women's sports, etc. It was also a time when most people assumed that being trans meant you had had full surgery and when same-sex marriage had eventually been passed in the US and all the "liberals" who had previously opposed it were rushing to support the trans - which they viewed as a version of gay - in order not to make the same "mistake" again. They do seem, however, to have started to realise that their mistake was actually in supporting men in women's safe spaces, and are now shifting away from that position.

Dolly's 2023 response didn't even address the issue of puberty blockers - which was the subject of the law she was being asked about - and she just gave her usual Dolly reply of "I want everyone to be happy".

It's a big misrepresentation to state that Dolly supported the mantra that "transwomen are women", male rapists should be housed in women's prisons, child mutilation, men in women's sports, etc.

I don't see any bashing either, to be fair.

I admired Dolly and am sad we lost her, but I was aware she had made statements of the generic "live and let live" variety, re: trans in recent years.
I assumed she was surrounded by unthinking #bekind people, and had never had to think too deeply about it or have the hard conversations.

I get the sense that she, like many people, conflated "trans person" with "self hating homosexual who just couldn't take it anymore", and pitied them. She was a well-meaning person whose kindness was taken advantage of. A lot of us started out in the same place, so I can't fault her for that.

She's also American, and this issue is not talked about in a normal way in America. It's divided among political lines, when it shouldn't be, and religion often gets dragged into it, when it shouldn't be. Americans often view criticism of trans as a Republican thing, or they get failed by advocates who hammer on religion instead of sticking to the facts.

(They'll say things like "God opened my eyes", "God made you this way" or "God only made two sexes" and truly seem oblivious to how subjective that is, and how it undermines their argument. British TERFs, by contrast, stick to reality and rational thinking, because we recognise that these arguments are universal and are the most likely to cut through.)

Long story short, it's been an uphill battle to find gender critical content in America, so I am inclined to cut American women more slack. The situation has improved massively in the last two years or so, though. High profile cases are starting to hit the news and we are seeing more bipartisan support for detransitioners and the protection of women's sports. It's slow, but it's happening.

If Dolly hadn't been an ailing woman in the last years of her life, who knows what her opinions would ultimately have come to be? I think she likely would have ended up even more neutral about it in public than before. She doesn't strike me as the kind of woman who would have sold out other women - especially not poor and working class women. I don't think women losing scholarships, or being forced to share prison space with men, would have been something she condoned. I imagine the stories of trans widows and detransitioners would have moved her too.

Ultimately we'll never know, of course, but I was happy to show her grace in life and I still am in death. Trans has always been a movement that exploits women's kindness. Sometimes it's best to meet that with grace.

Bashing? I don't see any of that, I mostly see lots of posters saying that she was wonderful, and we don't have to agree with everything about her to admire her.

For example, she believed strongly in her religion whereas I am an atheist - this has no impact on how much I admire her work, both artistic and philantropic.

This was in a 2023 interview where they asked her about her home state Tennesse banning gender 'care' for under 18s. Her response seems poor but then maybe she didn't realise the degree to which minors were at risk. Or maybe she agreed with the ban but didn't want to hurt trans people's feelings by being too overt
about it.

Or maybe you're attempting to rationalise a fact that DP understands which is trans adults were once trans children so the risk to minors works both ways.

To be fair did me a favour, without him telling me to educate myself, I would r be a proud TERF and I’d never have discovered Mumsnet. swings and roundabouts. Fear of men, love of protecting women’s rights from misogynistic men in dresses.

''I just know if I have to pee, I’m going to pee,” she continued. “I don’t care where it’s going to be.”

I haven’t read the article, but this sounds like she would pee anywhere. Not anyone else. When I have been desperate, I have peed anywhere (bush, a deserted car park, too many to mention!). I can’t see where she is talking about anyone else choosing where to wee?

I think she was a brilliant woman and in many ways I’m going to try and be a bit more Dolly. I don’t need people to think exactly the same way as me for me to like them.

I was almost extremely rude, but I don't like being rude, so I took a deep breath...

Just stop generalising. Quit with the assumptions.

I know and like several trans people and I STILL know that people can't change sex and I STILL don't want men in women's loos, changing rooms, prisons and sports. I STILL think it's wrong to medicate children who have no idea what it is that they're getting into.

And I manage to have friends with whom I disagree on fundamental things, so I can definitely still think Dolly Parton was amazing, even if we didn't see eye to eye on this one.

PS Calling people bigots is very rude.

I understand

I wont play anything of hers until I know whether she puts jam on first or the cream on first.

True. If we were going down that purity spiral we’d be banning vegetarians and artists.

Abso fuckin lutely.

Perhaps she just didn’t think the same as you.

Yes I did. He was a TIM. Only man I was ever abused by. So now you’re right. I do have a deep fear of men. Including those wearing dresses…

My TIM ex threatened to kill me and got his gang of cronies to harass me on the street because I wouldn’t call myself a lesbian. I had years of abuse from him. So yes I have known trans people. They were some of the most bigoted, nastiest people I had ever met. What’s your point?