German TW police officer accused of rape of teenage girl and possession of CSA

I certainly wasn't suggesting or implying that.

It's a complicated topic. Mainly I'm trying to see how a victim might feel, and how the phrases might affect perception and yes subtext.

I can certainly see the argument for not using 'CP', as it does seem to imply that people involved are doing so with agency. But using 'images of CSA' could perhaps deflect for the reason the material was made, for gratification.

And the whole subject is of course hugely sensitive.

It in in the sense you are demanding people change a perfectly accurate description, which in no way condones the material, or else they are somehow ok with sexual abuse of kids.

Even if they are actually discussing how vile people are who make or use it.

It's out of place and strained is a nice way of putting it. Implying people are good with paedophiles for using an accurate description of the material is the subtext every time someone corrects a poster that way.

Thanks. I'll have a look at this when I get a minute.

It went quite a bit further there I believe.

I very much hope nothing like this happened here. If you have the time, it’s a shocking, eye opening read.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-experiment-that-placed-foster-children-with-pedophiles

So for any rape case it would be an automatic 25 year sentence with no parole regardless of circumstances. So then we could go from the highest pc incarceration rate in western europe to the highest in the whole of Europe without reducing serious sexual assaults at all?

I do understand where you are coming from but I'm just saying that we need to move away from glib sound bites.

I really hope I haven't upset you at all, these are very serious issues.

We had the same here with the pedophile information exchange didn't we?

I have absolutely no interest in discussing detailed scenarios with you.

Right, so in sentencing terms you wouldn't differentiate between, say, sex which began consensually but the women asked the perpetrator to stop and he didn't, let's add that the accused profoundly regretted his actions and said he was drunk at the time, and took full responsibility, and a case in which three men kidnapped a women and raped her several times over a weekend before she escaped before they murdered her?

I am just saying knee jerk responses like 'throw away the key' aren't really very helpful. The reality is far more nuanced than that.

TRSOH?

Does that affect anything I've said?

My goodness, TRSOH is clown-dancing on this thread about a child rapist and thinks they're fighting the Good Fight? #OperationLetThemSpeak

I don't think Ian Huntley is ever going to see the light of day again is he?

No, because he's dead.

All rape is extreme.

I don't think Ian Huntley is ever going to see the light of day again is he? There are a few psychopaths about, but you can't legislate on the basis of one case can you? Isn't the saying "Hard cases make bad law"?

You quote earlier offences he had committed which weren't prosecuted, mainly through one victim withdrawing her complaint, or insufficient evidence rather than too lenient sentencing. The main problem with the case was that information wasn't shared between organisations, something which the Bichard Enquiry has sought to address. Again, this isn't a problem with sentencing is it? If he had been convicted of the rape of the 11 year old he would have been sentenced to two years which was the maximum at the time. Whether that would have led to his rehabilitation before the Soham murders we will never know. Currently the sentence would be more likely to be six years or so.

So how do you identify an Ian Huntley from the general male population? Everything is 20/20 in Hindsight isn't it?

So everyone agrees that child murderers should never see the light of day again. I'm pretty on board with that. Same with serial killers like Sutcliffe. But they are extreme cases. What would you do with less extreme cases?

It's not in the least 'strained' to call it images of child sex abuse. It's very factual.

I forgot to put this link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_murders

A very long time. The Soham murderer, Ian Huntley was a known pedophile and had several sexual relationships with girls under the age of 15, made one 15 year old girl pregnant, then was accused of raping an 18 year old woman. He wasn't charged for any of those offences. In 1998 Huntley was investigated for sexually assaulting an 11 year old girl, threatening to kill her if she said anything about it. He then went on to kill the two young Soham girls.
These are not ordinary people, they do not behave in an ordinary way, I do not believe that they can be rehabilitated.

This does not seem to be widely known.

But I remember coming across this and being very shocked

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/past-pedophile-links-haunt-german-green-party-a-899544.html

That being said, I am not really surprised Germany is light on these laws. If say they have firm on this kind of thing.

I wonder if the motorcycle thing is something around attempts at direct restitution like we use in civil law cases? Maybe that's less seperate in Germany?

This seems awful, but the prison system has to work, practically.

No matter how we slice it that has to be part of a larger discussion about sentencing. And it has to look at the other kinds of crime too.

It's a worthwhile discussion but not one with easy answers.

Pornography just means images intended for sexual use. It can be, and often is, abusive.

There is not need to create strained language to show that, everyone knows child pornography is abusive and illegal. Including the people who create and consume it.

We've danced this dance upthread.

How long do you lock them up for?

They need to be locked up, for the safety of other children. We can argue about how best to address their offending and their own traumas while they are there, locked up in prison, WHERE THEY CANNOT RAPE ANOTHER CHILD.

Why would/should victims care about perpetrators' backgrounds? But society as a whole has to find solutions doesn't it? Although throwing away the key is an easy sound bite it doesn't improve outcomes for anyone.

Have you got a link to any this research you refer to?