Another BBC mess: "Do you think it’s right to tell transgender people which toilet to use?" Let's ask some men...

Do you have a response to my post asking why you get to decide whether women will worry or not, as opposed to the women themselves deciding this?

I'm also interested in your thoughts on the women for whom the possibility that you may be blending in and they may not recognise you as male may be a "worry" - such a worry, that they no longer feel able to access female toilets. They're out there.

I find it really telling which arguments get ignored and which get an answer. The "Helle's male relative isn't trans, hah!" and "So hormones don't do anything, then?" responses are so easy.

What about the bigger problem here - the denial of female autonomy itself in defence of your position, Ty? Helle asks about this, too.

This⬆️
DH (who aims where he should, and also cleans up after himself) tells me how disgusting the men’s toilets are at his work. I feel for him having to use them.
DS has reported men’s facilities elsewhere with piss all over the floor.
I’m so glad we have separate facilities in the majority of places.

“So if there is a (sensible) GC person ready to talk”

I am struggling to think of a non-sensible ‘GC’ person who would agree to discuss the topic on national media. Has there been someone in the past who comes to mind?

You can never really blend, though, because people, women especially, have very sensitive radars for the recognition of 'Sex'; and usually a very well developed 'creep' radar to boot. Growing up female your instincts do tend to get a lot of activation. People recognise a performance when they see one, even if they don't straight away clock what is going on.

That is exactly how the BBC is supposed to operate. Two sides to the story.

For the love of Mike, Nick hasn't done anything of the sort! 🙄As I told you earlier in the thread when you made the same accusation, all he has done is write a blog post about someone else making a complaint to the BBS about this unbalanced discussion programme and actually getting a proper apology from the BBC, which is almost a miracle in itself. Why are you making these snarky comments about a respected award-winning campaigning journalist? Is it because he isn't on your side of the argument?

Or people could be being polite? Like when they don’t point out someone is really ugly or their dress doesn’t suit them. You honestly have no idea about female socialisation do you? You do seem to know a lot about male entitlement though. You’ve got that down pat.

Youre the one who said a PP husband hated to “look like a woman” to blend in. What do you mean by that? Are you suggesting there is a particular way women should look? Are you inferring thst if a male takes enough artificial hormones he will look like a woman? In what way? What would hormones change in a male to make him look like a woman? Which woman would he look like? Margaret Thatcher? Katie Price? Angela Lansbury? Madonna?

Also misgendered is not right. Correctly sexed is accurate.

An androgynous man is an androgynous man.

At least you are now being honest.

Oh yes.

And then after Covid when people obviously pointed out how his hairline gave him away, he started to wear hats.

Apparently though, he had his puberty blocked and was very clear that no one ever mistook him for a man. When his images, which sometimes can be difficult to tell, were very clearly of a man.

No mate.

You have just shown that you don’t understand female people’s reactions to male people.

And you have continued to do this over and over on this thread.

Many female people will simply not let on to a male person that they have correctly identified their sex category. This is due to fear of attack, of emotional reprisal or of any negative ramification of doing so. Some female people will even continue to lie to keep a male person happy when a male person asks them the truth. This is out of a need to keep male people happy for quite a few different reasons.

Never mistake a lack of acknowledgement from a female person in a face to face situation, or even not in person when it is necessary, as being an indicator of your ability to ‘pass’ or to deceive people that you are a female person in any way.

I fear that we have reached groundhog day on this thread. I'll post the JL Partners polling for Sex Matters before I leave:

A majority of people of all ages and political shades prefer single-sex toilets
This preference is seen among all groups, overwhelmingly – including Labour and Green voters and 18–24 year-olds.

and

Even among the youngest adults and Green voters, a majority agree that transgender people should not simply be allowed to use whichever facilities they prefer.

In fact, and surprisingly IMO, about a third of respondents said that trans-identified people should use the facilities for their sex and shouldn't have an alternative provided. This is a view that I think is less generous than many of us 'bigoted, transphobic' TERFs hold!

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/new-poll-shows-most-people-prefer-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

You're a man Ty not a woman

the fact you know this, know using women's spaces makes them uncomfortable but you don't care and keep doing it, is about the most male coded behaviour there is and we are beyond irritated with selfish men like you barging into women's spaces

go in the fucking men's where you belong

A man pretending to be a woman.

Seriously?

We know a pantomine horse is not a real horse, but we can also tell it's an attempting to look like a horse.

Well how would they know if I just look like an androgynous man?

That is clearly not what is being said.

The way you move, your hands etc are all tells. And the male entitlement. We see it. It's just that sometime we opt for self preservation.

Lots of people will use incorrect pronouns even though they can see the person is the opposite sex to the pronoun. Perhaps, given what you have learnt on this thread, you can think of some reasons why they might do this?

On the contrary - there's a long and dishonourable history of transactivists routinely sabotaging attempts at democratic debate - media appearances, university panels, radio and TV by refusing to debate / discuss with women.

Remember Stonewall's #nodebate? Way back in 2015 we were being told that trans rights to remove the rights of others weren't up for debate - hence the mess so many organisations are in. A position repeated by numerous individuals and groups with limited arguments about why trans tops everything in society.

With respect, you don't seem to be well acquainted with many of the facts and history of what you're commenting on?

Remember this young woman who beclowned herself by trying to sabotage an Oxford Uni debate

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2023/05/30/activist-glued-to-the-floor-derails-kathleen-stock-talk/

You probably are, you just don't know because people won't bother saying anything most of the time.

As a parallel, I wouldn't tell a shop assistant that they have bad breath because that's just mean, but I'd still notice it.

The early start, hormones and surgery TW I know look like androgenous men. The sex markers (cultural and physical) are blurred but not gone.

Humans simple cannot fully cross the sex barrier, nor even become genuinely androgenous.

Surely a range of opinions should be included, by a state broadcaster funded by a licence fee? So if the BBC had forgotten that, it can only be a good thing that they have been reminded?
Having said that, they could do with having a bit of a think about editorial policy and how the factual validity of some of the arguments is framed. So currently, there does still seem to be a slant towards 'but how does this make a transwoman feel?' over 'what effect does this have on women's rights at population level?' That colours the 'debate', because as we see constantly on threads, there is a lot of muddle about the basics (there being 2 sexes, where males at population level are bigger, stronger, faster and commit more sexual offences and offences of violence, as a starting point) which makes balanced discussion nigh-on impossible.

There was a man who visited here for years who was incredibly insistent about how he was totally unclockable and womanly due to puberty blockers and years of hormones.

Then it transpired he was posting elsewhere and there were photos of him, I kid you not, wearing full suit of armour and whacking things with swords. Also pics of him next to women, showing a large, averagely well built bloke with long hair and moobs that were unexceptional for a man carrying a little bit of body fat.

There are a very, very few men who pass as women. It's really a handful. And frankly, it seems unfair to tell any men there is a chance they'll pass, because it is so extremely unlikely that they will.

Be yourself. Be a man who likes to wear dresses and long hair. And stay the fuck out of women's spaces. Then we're all cool.