Another BBC mess: "Do you think it’s right to tell transgender people which toilet to use?" Let's ask some men...

There are lots of things that you can do to your body that have a significant impact. None of them enable you to change sex.

THE LIST OF THINGS THAT ARE INCLUDED IN FACIAL 'FEMINISATION' SURGERIES

www.thelondontransgenderclinic.uk/price-list/

So the facial features that a male needs to change to better simulate a female's face starts with the following (alphabetically listed):

Brow lift
Cheek enhancement
Chin reduction / shaping
Eye feminisation
fat grafting
Forehead / brow contouring
Hairline lowering
Jaw shaping
Rhinoplasty (this may also include the change to the nasal columella to around 95 degrees which is different to 'male', removing a normally bulbous nasal tip, )
Thyroid shave / Adams apple reduction
Upper lip lift (I wonder if this is to give the 'v' which is a female trait vs the 'u' of males. OR could be combined with the rhinoplasty to change the space between the nose and lip which is shorter in females than males according to many cosmetic surgery sites. I guess if you shorter this you also emphasise that nasal columella angle to be more like a female angle)

I can only assume that the image attached is an aspirational before and after.

I cannot quite understand posters who seem to be determined to tell us that sex cannot be intuitively and quite accurately understood from unsurgically altered male faces. I am quite sure that Sal Grover could come and tell us what her algorithm measures as it is rather accurate which is why a transitioned male took her to court regarding access to Giggle.

So, combined with face and general skeletal proportions such as males having bigger heads and longer arms and legs, bigger hands and feet, different angles of bones in hips/legs etc, I suspect that some posters are perhaps really not very observant about the specifics of male faces and anatomy.

I also think that seeing the self published 'success' stories of these surgeries, they are not really successful. They certainly don't modifying the many other skeletal differences.

More about hips .... including a diagram showing q angles

https://archive.ph/u4oSa

Tell you what....

List the exact and detailed changes that male people's bodies undergo with estrogen ingested at female levels.

Shall I start the list?

Male breast development that resembles female breast development but is not female breast development. ✔

Soft skin ✔

A penis that doesn't taste or smell like a penis when testosterone is not replaced by estrogen ✔

Fat redistributed around the body if that male person decides to not undergo fitness training ✔

Please, Ty, list the rest of these changes for us all to see and be educated on.

Then please describe how each of these makes a male person female including the differences then between male people taking hormones purely for identity purposes and all those male people who are estrogen treatment for other reasons....

How about this also, male breast development is never female breast development!

A male person can do many things to his breasts, but they will never be the interactive feeding system that female breasts are.

If a male person's misogynistic view is that acquiring something that looks similar to a female breast is 'blending in' and 'passing', they really are that ignorant about the realities of the the female body they claim to have.

Each post and each statement underlines that ignorance.

Oh... really?

So you have heard all this before from me by interacting with me, and you still don't understand consent and safeguarding?

Sounds more like you, personally, are tying yourself in knots to deny that you access female single sex provisions without the consent of female people and you understand that you are doing it, but try to justify it any way you can.

Since you seem to need it very clearly spelt out:

Having something resembling breast development as a male makes NO difference to whether you are male or female. Male people can still have something resembling breast development for many other reasons.

and this too:

Taking hormones in female quantities as a male person does not make you female or give you access to female single sex provisions!

It is fucking irrelevant to what degree you have changed your male body. It is still male and the male body cues are still distinguishable even with surgery and hormones.

So what changes do hormones make to a male body that turn him into a woman? As far as I know, it’s boob growth, skin texture and fat distribution. Nothing else changes. Every cell in the body is still male. Are you saying a woman is just a man with softer skin and boobs 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

DETECTING SEX CATEGORY BY GAIT STUDY

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.00320/full

Table 2 shows that sex can be identified from gait by the study cohort with 65% accuracy just from dots on the joints over a 3.8 second duration.

To be clear, 65% accuracy from dots over a less than 4 second duration! It was still over 60% accuracy from 0.4 seconds.

This is a fairly handy graphic. It is basic and is not showing q-angles but it communicates the basics.

Abstract
This paper explores in parallel the underlying mechanisms in human perception of biological motion and the best approaches for automatic classification of gait. The experiments tested three different learning paradigms, namely, biological, biomimetic, and non-biomimetic models for gender identification from human gait. Psychophysical experiments with twenty-one observers were conducted along with computational experiments without applying any gender specific modifications to the models or the stimuli. Results demonstrate the utilization of a generic memory based learning system in humans for gait perception, thus reducing ambiguity between two opposing learning systems proposed for biological motion perception. Results also support the biomimetic nature of memory based artificial neural networks (ANN) in their ability to emulate biological neural networks, as opposed to non-biomimetic models. In addition, the comparison between biological and computational learning approaches establishes a memory based biomimetic model as the best candidate for a generic artificial gait classifier (83% accuracy, p < 0.001), compared to human observers (66%, p < 0.005) or non-biomimetic models (83%, p < 0.001) while adhering to human-like sensitivity to gender identification, promising potential for application of the model in any given non-gender based gait perception objective with superhuman performance.

What's your point? No one is saying there's no changes. We are simply saying that your body being different from where you started from is not the same thing as your body being where ours are.

And regardless of how peple may treat you now, living in the world as a male child and young adult forms you in ways that are very different to living in the world as a female child and youg adult.

Fucking hell. I don't know the show so I don;t know the context, but I hope the violence of being "slapped" - full arm walloped really - by a transgender woman (ie an adult biological male) as opposed to an adult biological female was being intentionally made obvious in that scene.

I'm confused where she says "it doesn't exist". (This is, indeed, easy to argue against).

What about what she actually says?

THIS!!

You always bang on about material reality and science, but then twist yourself into knots to ignore the very real effect hormones have on a trans woman. I’m not saying every single TW has changes, but for some it can be quite significant. All it takes is 5 minutes on a transition timeline community and you will see the huge variation, but you need to pretend that doesn’t exist because it doesn’t fit your beliefs

I remember seeing a picture of Hunter posing with his sister on social media and instantly clocking him despite the fact that he's turned to the side

https://x.com/schaferfiles/status/1896875759136113094

Even when you can only see a portion of his face full on, there's no doubt that he's a man

Do you honestly believe that 'female presentation' is having something that looks like breast tissue and then some magic happens when oestrogen is taken by men in quantities that are normally found in female people?

Did you ever stop to think about how fucking misogynistic it is to female people to consider estrogen some magic drug that will change a male person into a female person?

Did you ever do any fucking research into these treatments at all and think about the material reality of male people deliberately ingesting hormones to make extreme body modifications and what it actually does and doesn't do?

I work with people with transgender identities. Why the fuck would any of them think that I know that they are male or female if the subject is not relevant? They use gender neutral provisions and not single sex provisions as per the policy of the organisation I work with. If I speak to them, I am not using pronouns generally. I am saying 'you' etc.

If your criteria for 'blending in' ie 'passing' is that you are not misgendered in every interaction, you really need to reconsider your criteria because it is not going to give you any accurate indication of material reality. But ... then again, considering your posts here, would you even bother to consider that you are in the wrong with that assumption as with lots of other assumptions.

Except that there are rarely only two sides to a story. It’s this belief that equivalence provides insight and balance that has led the BBC away from being able to inform people about what it’s involved in current issues, with any degree of nuance

Because that’s all thy see woman as, boobs, long hair and spinny dresses.

Schafer looks like a man who has undergone extreme body modifications. Particularly from the side but he has so many male body cues that are clearly visible.

Someone took one of his photos from online the other day and changed the hair to a short back and sides and he the male facial cues were all there still. Yet, he constantly gets held up as some kind of success story.

I really think that many male people really do believe that developed breast tissue and long hair makes a male person indistinguishable from a female person and that is as far as they look.

Even worse though was the creepiness of the implied tweet from Wu about how if PBs were more readily available there would be more 'Hunter Schafers' while describing being attracted to him...

Exactly.

So if my 80 year old mother spots you in the ladies she mustn't just slip out hoping you don't notice she should walk up to you and challenge you? Despite her fear of men in women's spaces turning her into a gibbering mess who can't speak?

But not just you any man with lady feels even when they are foot taller than her less than half her age and dripping with entitlement?

But let's move on from the toilets is there any female space you acknowledge you don't 'belong' in changing rooms? Hospital wards is there any point at which you have even a single niggling thought that your presence is inappropriate?

This hunter Schaffer?

as always filtered posed photos are one thing, the moving and talking are another

A lot of transwomen - well, a fair number of men in general - tell us that Hunter Schafer is a goddess in human form and would never be taken for a man. Most women look at HS and immediately see a man. Do you think you "blend in" the way HS "blends in"?

As PPs have said, this really is risible (or for the love of Mike - I like that!)

I don't honestly believe it was your point, as it's so desperate. I think it's is more flailing, like Ty's selective responses - but in this case, in response to one of those more difficult-to-challenge arguments.

No, Nick hasn't changed the entire landscape of BBC journalism in his blog post about another man's complaint.

No, BBC journalists aren't going to stop reporting GC voices because, having fulfilled their duty to reach out honestly and in good faith (which was the only issue in this case) for interviewees for the opposition, a number may sometimes reject the offer.

It's the reaching out honestly and in good faith that has to be done. It wasn't here.

I mean, that that even has to be explained... 🤯

Most people will detect your 'otherness', maybe initially perceiving it as a bit weird or slighly odd; or a bit " off"; something not 'quite right' - but depending on the person, and the particular situation, they may not say anything overt. I see cross dressing men fairly frequently in a local supermarrket, but I've yet to say " Hey mate, who do you think you are kidding?". Maybe they leave still thinking they pass.

I think men also see women as 'other' to them - even those that 'identify as' women. 'Woman' is an object they hope to attain by careful mimicry and the transposition of their personal imaginings about what is is to be a woman.