Another BBC mess: "Do you think it’s right to tell transgender people which toilet to use?" Let's ask some men...

But then if it’s inappropriate for you to play on women’s sport, by dint of not being a woman, surely it is inappropriate for you to access any women’s sport only spaces.

Oh I’m sorry. Did you miss where I said I didn’t think it would be appropriate for me to play in women’s sport?

Yes. I noted that.

It is a statement saying ‘Me! Me! Me! Me!’ I will only take what I want for the issues where ‘I’ want to access, otherwise you female people can have your single sex provision!

The entitlement is off the scales.

I don’t care for sports

Plus there is the demand that female people react in a way that could mean they are physically attacked, or suffer any negative consequences at all, before apparently enough female people might have shown that a male person doesn't 'pass' as they believe they do just because they had some treatments.

The very expectation that a potential victim will act in non-compliance when that victim fears acting in non-compliance before enough reaction has been shown for women saying 'we know you are not female' to be considered to have greater understanding of female perception than a male person has, is abusive, gaslighting and misogynistic. It really is an abuser's charter.

'Well, none of you reacted when you saw me in person therefore no harm was done....'. It fits with the access by deception narrative.

But apparently, we are the wrong type of female people to have our female opinion considered as important....

Agreed. That would appear to read pretty much as 'if you don't gratify me as I demand then I'm entitled to feel free to harm you'. Which is a new version of the grim 'If you didn't annoy me I wouldn't have to hurt you'.

Because there are women who cannot use mixed sex facilities. When a man walks in, some women are distressed and humiliated and others have to flee. In distress and fear because they have inner lives and needs and intersectionalities that apparently men neither know about or value. How the man feels internally or needs makes zero difference to this.

Women's spaces are there for women. Use the mixed sex space, that's what it's there for. Unless you have a binary sex based belief that being a man means you have a superior claim to a space, and greater importance than any woman you affect.

So if you c dot you are not a woman, evidenced by your avoidance of sone women’s spaces, why do you think you should be in any women’s spaces. You are not a woman.

Yes, I do avoid certain situations. I wouldn’t take part in women’s sports because it doesn’t feel appropriate and I don’t care for sports. I also wouldn’t use a communal changing space where there is nakedness. I don’t swim anymore because I’m anxious about the changing arrangements and it’s easier to avoid it. To be clear, I don’t think there would be an issue in a changing room, but I don’t want to risk making anyone uncomfortable

Yep.

This post above and “No, you’re just asking us to put ourselves in degrading and unsafe situations. Why specifically should I care what GC women want?” take on significance when you start reading back the thread.

How misogynistic is it for male people to make respect for female people’s needs contingent on whether those all those female people comply with the demands the male people make?

So female people who reject a male person’s subjective reality as being material reality is not be worthy of respect. And the control of female people’s reactions really has continued over the life of this thread.

It is remarkable when you see the pattern. And yet, it is questioned that female people act in ways that indicate compliance to male people’s identity demands.

This.
This thread is reminding me of a post I saw somewhere on Mumsnet, from a woman who goes jogging. Her husband suggested she could vary her usual route by going through some nearby woods he was familiar with.

She told him that she didn't go there because she didn't feel safe there. He was taken aback; the thought of whether they might be safe or not had simply never occurred to him.

She was taken aback too, that he was so completely oblivious to something that is second nature for women to consider.

Maybe Ty could demonstrate being a decent person by staying out of single-sex spaces for female people. Ty can always use unisex spaces or male single-sex spaces.

Once again, male privilege shows.

It's an anonymous internet forum promoting women's rights, that men with malicious intent duly target on a regular basis for a whole raft of disturbing reasons.

Your "get a grip" shows just how differently you experience things to a majority of women. That you don't immediately realise one of the reasons behind Arabella's warinessness (and weariness) - or don't care? - is telling. That you don't read her post and think, "What have I missed?" or consider interested empathy, but instead assume her unreasonableness with such rude confidence, speaks volumes as to a privilege so rock solid in this respect at least that you just don't see it.

And your "disproportionate" shows that, once again, even here, you consider yourself the arbiter of women's perceptions: of what is and isn't rational for us to think and feel, without understanding what it is to be us.

I don't like the predator/prey analogy, but do think it's regrettably apt. Females, subject to a lifetime of the male gaze and extreme physical vulnerability to male heterosexuality, simply don't experience the world as you do. We don't live in fear for the most part (although this, too, is largely determined by how lucky we've been and not much else) - but the risk assessments we carry out? The air we breathe. Many of us don't even realise. I can't imagine what it would be like to have male strength. (I also don't presume to think I can imagine it, let alone tell men how to experience it).

Again, this isn't to dismiss your own particular issues and challenges. But it is to say how offensive it is to say they're the same as ours to a degree that legitimises taking our words and hard-won rights, and telling us how to feel about that.

@NotTodayTy

Can you answer my question as to whether there are any female only spaces that you feel it would be inappropriate for you to enter. We know you think toilets are fair game but what about changing rooms? Or hospital wards? Or sport categories? Do you acknowledge that there are any places you shouldn't be able to go?

Telling women what female is is incredibly male behaviour. And fundamentally incorrect.

You knew that you were unhappy being considered a male person.

Rejection of your concept of being male didn’t make you female in any way. You were and are male, just not following stereotypes that you believed were male stereotypes. Surely someone explained that there are many ways to be a male. Even the very male concept of declaring that you are somehow female enough to be female.

Only a male person would describe themselves as somehow being female enough to claim to be female when they are not female at all.

But you didn't. You just felt uncomfortable with the male stereotypes presented to you. So you decided that 'not that' = female. It doesn't, you're just a different kind of man.

Late twenties/early thirties nowadays is just when life starts to get complicated for women. Someone pretending to be a woman will never be confronted by the conflicts and tradeoffs imposed by biological reality and the emotional constraints involved in balancing reproductive choices, career and family life.
A man cannot live as a woman in any meaningful way.

How is that list coming on?

Ready to educate us with all those other changes that oestrogen hormone in female quantities makes to a male body?

Male breast development that resembles female breast development but is not female breast development. ✔

Soft skin ✔

A penis that doesn't taste or smell like a penis when testosterone is not replaced by estrogen ✔

Fat redistributed around the body if that male person decides to not undergo fitness training ✔

What else?

And

How do these changes make a male person a female person?

It started quite young when I noticed I was different to the other boys. I just didn’t fit it and I was severely bullied for it. I didn’t have any shared interests with the boys and realised I had better friendships with girls. I really became aware that I should’ve been born female when I was around 11/12 years old and started to become uncomfortable with how my body was going to develop. I don’t have much else I can tell you other than I just kind of knew at this point.

What is interesting is just how some male people seek to exert control over female people’s reactions to their presence and their words… while denying that people in their everyday life might understand very clearly that they are a male person but feel the need to affirm that male person’s subjective reality as if it is somehow material reality.

Imagine that…

If our species were different and we had great difficulty telling the difference between men and women (In this scenario we would probably be an endangered species) it would still be necessary to define male and female humans.

No man has ever been or will ever be a girl or a woman. He cannot know what it means to be female.

Even if a thousand people were deceived by his presentation, it would not make him female or allow him to feel what its like to be a woman.

This isn't a judgement, an opinion, or anything other than a very simple statement of fact.

@NotTodayTy - why did you transaction? Before you did anythng to your body, what in yourself led you to conclude you must be a woman and therefore must transition? How do you think that thing you recognised in yourself relates to the existence of female people?

Yep.

Male language patterns and reactions to women saying ‘no’ just keep on replaying.