Another BBC mess: "Do you think it’s right to tell transgender people which toilet to use?" Let's ask some men...

I'm bored to bloody death with the whole 'play along with this game' bit, I really am. Any patience I had is gone.

Same here WishesandHorses, I am sick to death of the misogyny, sexism, homophobia, selfishness and sheer unadulterated spite shown by trans identifying men such as Ty. No respect or even a modicum of consideration for women just flat out ignoring consent and boundaries of women and then berating women for setting those boundaries and not consenting to their demands.

The fact that they cannot or will not see the type of person this shows them to be says it all.

But apparently, no one can tell that he is not female.

You risk making women uncomfortable every time you use a women's space.

Well. 'Uncomfortable' is mild. Many women have PTSD from past experiences of male violence and abuse.

You risk retraumatising a woman. Terrifying her.

You happy with that?

I'm thinking that there are a lot of Jims from American Pie, unable to get Nadia, so trying to be her and failing comprehensively.

Have you even thought deeply about the things you are posting on this thread on the Feminism board of Mumsnet?

And that bit about accuracy… did you think about it before writing it?

It's all about tits. It nearly always is with men.

How is that list coming on?

Ready to educate us with all those other changes that oestrogen hormone in female quantities makes to a male body?

Male breast development that resembles female breast development but is not female breast development. ✔

Soft skin ✔

A penis that doesn't taste or smell like a penis when testosterone is not replaced by estrogen ✔

Fat redistributed around the body if that male person decides to not undergo fitness training ✔

What else? anything??

And

How do these changes make a male person a female person?

At this point, it seems that this is pretty much the list. And that it is clear that some male people believe that these changes are ‘enough’ to claim to be female. If I remember, we have had a few other male people claim that there are more changes than we acknowledge yet can never produce a list. All while never once understanding how fucking offensive it is to female people, to claim that male acquisition of any of the above makes any male person ‘female’. It is Deja va! A repeat of some months ago.

Another male redefines the meaning of ‘female’ to suit themselves. But mainly it focuses on acquisition of development of male breasts to resemble female breasts.

(just a reminder that female breast development means the development of an interactive feeding system for infants that male people can simply never achieve. )

I am very impressed by the logical arguments on this thread. Well done, MNers!

Well you said it and I thought we were supposed to take you at face value and not see the truth underneath....

And didn't transition until early 20s, so socialised as male from birth and went through male puberty.

As I’ve explained, I didn’t mean it like that. But who cares about accuracy when you have a great quote, right?

Yep, I don't do it because it wouldn't be appropriate but I don't give a shit so I'll give you that thing to yourselves is not a great look, is it.

If you liked sports, I'd bet a pound to a penny you'd be barging right in.

People can disagree, but they would still be wrong. Identifying as a woman and modifying external appearance to approximate to that of a woman doesn't actually make someone a woman, because the only thing needed to be a woman is to be born in a female body and survive to adulthood.

I wouldn’t take part in women’s sports because it doesn’t feel appropriate and I don’t care for sports

It doesn’t matter a whit to you because you don’t like sports anyway. Nothing about you playacting as a woman is appropriate, but hey ho.

No, I've got no head pats available for not interfering with women's sports (especially since sports aren't of interest).

It always feels like the terra nullis thing.

Anything women have is not being useful to men, it's just brown field, so men using it is obviously an improvement.

Anything women feel or their inner selves and identities and challenges and traumas - not affecting anyone male so obviously not anything that matters like a distressed man does with all his important inner feelings and needs.

Its no wonder women get a bit ratty about it really. And it all proves, repeatedly why women need the law, that exists, as the SCJ have confirmed.

Because without the law, men crack on seeing themselves in a binary sex based hierarchy, in which one of their expressions of that sex based hierarchy is having the power to force women to supposedly pretend the sex part doesn't exist while bowing to it and enabling men at their own expense, access, equality and needs. Especially less privileged women.

I'm bored to bloody death with the whole 'play along with this game' bit, I really am. Any patience I had is gone.

Or what @Helleofabore said more eloquently than I did.

The reasons why it is not appropriate in sport are exactly the same reasons as to why it isn't appropriate anywhere else.

HTH.

If it is not appropriate for a male person to compete in female sport as a female competitor, it is not appropriate for a male person to use any other female single sex provisions. The reason for safeguarding principles being needed for sport is the same for all other female single sex provision.

Safety due to male people retaining testosterone derived advantages that have now been shown to exist from childhood impacts not just sport but every other provision a male person accesses.

Of course, the harms of male people accessing any female single sex provision is not limited to physical harm. And those other harms are relevant to sport and the other provisions as well.

It is as clear as a beacon.

If it is of no direct benefit to the male
person expressing the opinion, it is ok for female people to have that single sex provision. Otherwise… it is back to access by ignoring/ dismissing lack of consent of female people.

This is the fail in logic and the ‘me, me, me, me!’ selectiveness.

TIMs do seem to be the most selfish people on the planet. Quite why 51% of the population has to bend over for the less than 1% who want to be them is beyond me.

And why would that be?

I kind of see how it looks like that. Just to be clear, I don’t think it would be appropriate no matter how much I care about sport. I was clumsily trying to say I’m not sporty as well

To be fair, I think it was that bit that made us all home in on the bit about not caring. It felt strange to say it's not appropriate - which would usually be the end of the story - yet then to add another reason on top of that. It gives the clear impression that it not being appropriate is contingent on how much it matters to you.