My work insisting I refer to a 9 year old as they/them

And non-binary means...?

They're a 9 year old child surrounded by adults unable or refusing to safeguard them. Thinking you don't have a sex is an adult delusion or belief.

No 9 year old child should be caught up in this until they've been allowed to mature and develop the critical thinking skills, the confidence and resilience to defend themselves against adult gaslighting and to make informed decisions about their future.

Safeguarding children is what all reasonable adults do. We're in this mess as children's safety is seen as expendable by trans extremists who spend their time trying to bully others out of safeguarding children. .

They're non-binary, and don't need abusive adults trying to get one over on them or telling them how they feel.

Your inability to accept them is very much your problem.

In many cases, perhaps even most cases, it’s a woeful lack of parenting skills and educator gumption. It’s OK to say “No” to a child. It’s OK to say “No” to the parents. It’s OK to have boundaries.

You also need to consider whether other children in the class are being harmed.

The idea that there is a right and wrong way to be one sex or the other is not neutral.

YPs took their lives before social media sadly

They did, but I would distinguish children who actually take their lives from children who have acquired the belief that suicide is the inevitable response if one's perception of self is not affirmed.

Childhood suicide has dropped since the 1980s, and it was very, very rare then.

It matters a lot at 9. Nine year olds believe what adults tell them. If adults agree at 9 that a child can choose to be "non-binary" and starts they-themming the child from thaat point on, then how do you think puberty is going to hit them at 11 or 13? When they realise that like it or lump it they really are develop[ng an adult body of one sex or the other and that nature is unaffected by the pronouns they have chosen and everyone around them has agreed properly apply to them? Does that make puberty less traumatic?

That's why Dr Cass (remember her?) pointed out that social transition is not a neutral act.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed and @MarieDeGournay it comes down to whether we think we are harming the child by using their preferred pronouns/name or harming them by not using their preferred. I guess it matters not so much for a pre puberty child of 9 but is the worry about what happens at 13 or thereabouts. I fear we won’t know because it’s nearly always going to come down to an opinion or bias of who decides if the child should be “allowed “ to continue with their preferences. Probably it’s fair to say the woeful lack of CAMHS funding means it easier to allow the preference than face the severe mental health crisis that could ensue if this denied.

@iwishitwouldstartraining YPs took their lives before social media sadly.

But I see parallels between how smartphones and social media developed with no one thinking of consequences and what seems to be happening with AI, for sure.

I taught media for years and there was always a folk devil of some time that we thought was corrupting our kids’ minds. That’s not me downplaying it but I think most people including kids cope with it.

Those that don’t - would it be something else making them ill if not social media.

I know one thing for sure, a lot more time and resources needs to be put into supporting kids and parents.

Gosh, TPA, I don't know how you consistently manage to keep up the outrage and the hyperbolics turned up to 11! You do it regularly - misrepresenting the point other posters are making, and then flying in with predictable accusations like 'hate' and 'vengeance', which are completely unfounded.

Far from 'hating' this 'one poor kid', my only concern is for that one poor kid to be entitled to an education based on fact and reality, not on ideology or fad or undefinables like 'trans' or 'non-binary'.

The fact is that she is a little girl, and she will grow up to be an adult human female. If she is having difficulty with that - as I did when I was nine- she needs love and support but above all she deserves the truth: that she is female, and always will be, and that's just a fact.

How she lives out her femaleness is a different matter - all the boys and girls in her class deserve to be encouraged to be whatever kind of boy or girl they want to be, and to grow up to be whatever kind of adult humans they want to be.
But within the biological reality that they can never not be the sex they were born into.

It's quite an achievement to construe that as hatred or a desire for vengeance, but it's totally in keeping with what you do regularly: misrepresent what was said, and then go off at ridiculous levels of hyperbole about your own misrepresentation of what was actually said.

It's too predictable to be effective.

To fall back on an old MN favourite:

"No is a complete sentence."

One little word, done and dusted, no drama or big deal, crack on. Sorted.

Hatred of children? Vengeance against them? What? That's quite the accusation, Annoyed.

And actually a huge number of the posts have been about linguistics/literature/Tudor theatre which I've found really interesting.

Certainly it's odd that suicidal ideation didn't seem to be such a problem for children in the decades before social media.

@thirdfiddle it needs to be looked into

If course the identical twins are also convincing evidence that trans is not inborn genetically or even due to hormones in the womb.

I very much agree that a chat about it being OK to play football or whatever doesn't sort it out. The emotions can be very intense but it's not necesarily a matter of deep dysphoria, there can be many different pathways in to "trans". Partly for the reason I've given - a lot of these children are already steeped in the idea that "if you are at all gender-non-conforming in any way then you are trans".

I will bet that many of those children had already spent time online exploring "gender identity" long before their schools or their parents had half a clue. Even if they weren't discussing it themselves they weare seeing other young people discussing it.

Autism and determination are very closely linked. You know what they (used to?) say about the children who should transition - "insistent, persistent, consistent"? Well that's also autism for you! Especially the sort they used to call Asperger's Syndrome. They don't give up on their "special interest" - until sometimes suddenly they do and it's as if they never had it. And "trans" can be very much a "special interest".

Three sets of identical twins is a lot. Twins can often have broader identity issue. I wonder if any were using "trans" to differentiate from their twin.

And girls don't just "accept" they can actually pressure and bully each other to "be kind" to the poor/exciting "trans kid" and to conform and always use the "right" pronouns etc. Stella O'Malley has talked about groups of girls who include a feminine boy and almost make a pet of him and if he's not socially adept and has never had that kind of attention before it can be quite addictive.

Powerful emotions can come from all sorts of sources.

A chat about stereotypes doesn't simply disperse them. People's biases are deeply ingrained and often subconscious. It's a work of generations to convince kids that it really is fine to be a girl or a boy and like whatever you like and wear whatever clothes you like.

One that was heading the right way in the 80s and 90s. It certainly hadn't arrived, but it was progressing in UK society. Now transactivism has rather reversed progress by telling girls if they're not comfortable with femininity maybe they're a boy or NB.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I just don’t know. I’ve met some incredibly determined YPs. Parents views ranged from vehemently against to supportive. Most of the YPs did have traits that were socially awkward or traits of autism maybe? I’ve met three sets of Identical twins where one wanted to change or ID as NB. I’ve known horrific SH and suicidal ideation. I wasn’t directly responsible as I was a teacher not a support worker but obviously you find out what’s happening as a teacher. Sometimes you got directive about pronouns and names, sometimes not. My biggest worry was bullying. Girls often accepting but boys less so. It just blew up from early 2000s to now. I honestly don’t think a chat about being ok to play football or be a dancer or whatever seemed to sort it out. But the truth? I just don’t know!

So I was trying to say trans people must feel it really strongly to want to change gender.

No, they don't all feel it very strongly. Instead they are told repeatedly that if they feel it at all however mildly then they might be transgender. And once people put their feet on that pathway they can be drawn further along it. They go looking for more signs and the more they look the more they find. And other people, teachers, social workers, even medical professionals, confirm it to them. The pathway goes from might be to must be.

Contradictory signs can be explained away by saying "but the other sex can enjoy doing this too". Feminists might think we're winning if we explain that a girl who likes playing football is still a girl. But we're not because while TRAs can obviously decide that a boy is really a transgirl if he likes pink they can also say that if he likes playing football then he is still a transgirl because "girls can like football too". The logic is a closed loop. Heads they're trans, tails they're still trans and it's sexist to say they're not.

Especially people with autism. The closed logic is very attractive and it can draw them in.

I can put a duvet cover on but it’s always annoying and never looks nice.

I find it fascinating that you think the ability to put a duvet cover on and whether or not you enjoy the task is something to do with someone's sex. Why did you pick this particular task as an example? Most people sleep in beds and most people in the UK use duvets on them. How do you think single men and gay men cope if you believe this to be a task for women? Do you think all housework is women's work and something that women enjoy or are expected to enjoy?

Same for clothes (well other than my jeans and horsey clothes) and make up. Always a kerfuffle and never seems worth it.

Lots of women feel like this. So what?

I guess what I’m trying to say is it doesn’t seem natural or normal for me

You and millions of others. So what?

These issues with what I think is gender performative behaviour hasn’t led me to think I’m not female. So I was trying to say trans people must feel it really strongly to want to change gender. That’s all.

Trans people must feel what really strongly? That they want to conform to regressive stereotypes? Have a think about what you're saying for a moment.

I probably am very sexist - but not about women!

You are very sexist about women. You think housework is something that women are generally good at and enjoy, but you're an exception. Have a think about what you're saying for a moment.

Discussing whether adults giving into a child's every whim and/or imposing their adult fantasies upon the child is in the child and other children's best interests is exactly the type of discussion concerned adults should be having IMO as a part of a good safeguarding culture.

Worth repeating!

When DD was in primary school she decided she was a Buddhist and wanted me to tell the school. She didn't really know anything about Buddhism other than that it seemed like a cool thing to be. I said that was fine but I wasn't going to be announcing to the school that she was now a Buddhist! A few weeks later she had (as expected) forgotten all about being a Buddhist.

Point being that children are impressionable and change their minds, nine is far too young to be expressing a new gender identity and have all the teachers go along with it. It's not even the age of puberty for most. The danger is that the girl gets locked in to it when in reality she may soon move on from the idea.

These issues with what I think is gender performative behaviour hasn’t led me to think I’m not female. So I was trying to say trans people must feel it really strongly to want to change gender. That’s all.

Point is it wasn't suggested to us when we were young. And consequently none of our classmates thought they were NB or trans. Not one in my massive secondary school. We were gender conforming or gender nonconforming, or some wild mix of the two, and only sexists objected.

It was a sort of running joke that grannies and granddads grumbled that they couldn't tell the boys from the girls, the implication being they were old fashioned and expected children to comply with stereotypes when the kids had moved on from that.

It didn't occur to us that you had to identify with stereotypes to be a girl. We were encouraged to think girls could do anything boys could. This kid has presumably been told by adults that if you don't feel girly, maybe you're not a girl. Who knows how we'd have reacted if we'd been told that at an impressionable age. It's nice to think we would have been more independent thinkers - but nobody thinks they'd fall for a con until they discover they have.

It's remarkably similar to an earlier post which accused the OP of getting enjoyment from (supposedly) hurting this child by..... avoiding any third person pronouns.

I hope that this "desire for vengeance" post isn't deleted. It was a shame that earlier one wasn't within MN guidelines as, ideally, hyperbole should stay in the thread so that it can be seen for what it is.

Edited to capture the quoted words correctly.

Not at all confusing….