My work insisting I refer to a 9 year old as they/them

Are we just talking about kids not always being accepting of other kids being gender non-conforming? Or not accepting of kids they think are gay? Often the same kids.

Same as the old days before gender theory took off?

Or is there now an additional layer of difficulty with gender non-conforming kids being told that their pronouns should match their personality/gendered soul rather than their sex (which is how naturally developed language actually uses pronouns)?

Are gender believers telling girls who aren’t “girly” that everyone around them should call them “he” ?

This surely creates demands and conflict with others who naturally use sex pronouns, and it’s unnecessary. Why not teach these girls that there are 4 billion ways to be female and they can involve wearing trousers, playing football and liking maths (or insert any other stereotypical things that “real girls don’t like”).

If there were more public support for just accepting people's gender (and using their pronouns) without demanding their appearance reflected that gender, then fewer trans people would medically transition.
Hang on, I thought people had to medically transition because simply being in their 'wrong'-sexed body was unbearable to them? When did that change? I'm afraid I didn't get the memo.

So all the ‘the wrong puberty would be traumatic’ talk was just bollocks then? There is no distress caused by the body. No dysphoria. It’s just that people wouldn’t use she instead of he (and vice versa) unless the body was altered? Well, that’s quite the revelation.

If shes female and dresses girly and fancies boy, she a fairly standard girl, no?

You should have taken her out of that school. It sounds horrendous.

My coming out to my family was a hilarious non-event, not one of them cared and it's altered nothing

Meaningless announcement treated as meaningless, shocker.

@TransParentlyAnnoyedI’m also curious as you why you’ve chosen describe your daughter as a gay trans boy who likes to wear dresses and makeup like girls?

Might this scenario, be simply a straight girl who doesn’t want to be restrained by gender stereotypes?

Being trans is not a paraphilia,

Have you never heard of autogynephilia?

and projecting that onto children is plain repulsive.

Exactly. Transsexualism is for adults. Children should never have been caught up in this sexist, misogynistic, sexual movement.

Trans children are as real as vegan cats.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed you’ve still not answered my Q: if I wake up tomorrow and feel like a Queen because I’ve always felt a little different and not likely private citizen and want everyone around me to refer to me as Her Majesty, should they? Or might they rightly say I’m taking the piss?

I’m of course well within my rights to feel like the Queen but, in my opinion, it’s wrong to insist others around me pretend I am.

same thing with transgender. They can dress up all they want, do things typically associated with other genders all they want, but they shouldn’t insist others play along should others not want to.

I suspect I’ll never get an answer from you and for me that’s the real answer.

I think 'inner gender' is personality and 'outer gender' is sex, although it's not clear why the word gender is used instead of personality.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed seems to be a sexist person who thinks some personalities should only be available to people of one sex. So if they don't 'match' then they have to pretend to be the opposite sex.

And people only medically transition because nasty feminists like us won't use wrong sex pronouns for sexists who think that anyone stepping outside regressive gender norms should be recognised as the opposite sex.

Your inner gender not reflecting your outer

What is your ‘inner gender’? What does that mean?

What is your ‘outer gender’?

Why do they have to ‘reflect’ each other? What does that mean?

Being trans isn't a sexual thing. It's literally just your inner gender not reflecting the outer.

You mean it's just personality? We all have those. People who identify as trans aren't unique in that respect.

Being transgender isn't a sexual orientation

Can you explain, in your own words, exactly what you think being transgender is @TransParentlyAnnoyed ?

We hear so much about what it isn't (and it obviously isn't a sexual orientation, so I don't know why you felt the need to state that), but never a definition of what it actually is.

Being non-binary is very normal. I have always known I was different - didn't want to be a boy, though I wanted the freedoms boys had and always fought for them, but knew that 'girl' didn't fit me either. So now, I am beginning to refer to myself as non-binary.

Some definitions.

A boy is a juvenile male human.
A girl is a juvenile female human.

Girls and boys can have any personality.

'Girl' did fit you because you are female. This says absolutely nothing about your personality. You weren't 'different' for wanting the freedoms boys had. You were a perfectly normal girl. Not wanting to be restricted by regressive gender roles is what made some of us feminists.

Now let's see how those facts fit with what you said

Being a feminist is very normal. I have always known I didn't want to be a boy, though I wanted the freedoms boys had and always fought for them, and didn't like the restrictions placed on girls.So I started to think of myself as a feminist, fighting for the rights of all girls not to be subjected to those restrictions.

I can see how being 'not like other girls' can seem attractive (been there, done that), but honestly, you need to wake up and see the misogyny at the heart of this movement.

Well said 👏

It happened so often in school that he stopped reporting it. Some gay teachers took him under their wing and walked corridors with him when they could, and other teachers looked out for him in class. But the bus, library, canteen and other communal areas are unguardable, especially when it's a lot of kids doing it.

He used to come home every day and collapse, because of the effort required to be hypervigilant. The experience has badly scarred him. Didn't stop him being trans though.

Being transgender isn't a sexual orientation, and he was a child!

He's gay (i.e. likes men, he's a late teen now) and is trans. He's still much more 'girly' than his old mum. Because he's been supported, he feels confident enough to wear skirts, dresses, heels and make-up, secure in the knowledge that his family and friends know he's a trans boy.

Being trans isn't a sexual thing. It's literally just your inner gender not reflecting the outer. Trans boys who are given support are far less likely to bind, and many prefer to keep their breasts. If there were more public support for just accepting people's gender (and using their pronouns) without demanding their appearance reflected that gender, then fewer trans people would medically transition.

It's not about a wish to become a different gender. It's about already being that gender. Dysphoria becomes unbearable when that inner person is denied the chance to show themselves. Coming out is a relief because they can stop pretending to be someone else.

Being trans is not a paraphilia, and projecting that onto children is plain repulsive.

Being non-binary is very normal. I have always known I was different - didn't want to be a boy, though I wanted the freedoms boys had and always fought for them, but knew that 'girl' didn't fit me either. So now, I am beginning to refer to myself as non-binary.

Please tell me. Do you really, truly think that my being non-binary is a paraphilia? Any idea how that works? I'm straight, have a husband and three children. My coming out to my family was a hilarious non-event, not one of them cared and it's altered nothing. I just feel happier knowing I finally have a label which fits - because it's quietly bothered me my whole life.

How is that a paraphilia?

How is a non-binary child asking to have their pronouns respected, a paraphilia?

Seriously, how?!

I think the type of science which says dysphoria exist is the type of science that asks patients how they feel then writes down what they say. If 1% of patients said they were distressed because they felt they were aardvarks, science would say that aardvark-related-distress existed.

What it wouldn't say was that the people were aardvarks, or whether they were saying it as a result of inner aardvark essence or a mass delusion or social trend. Science just records the observed symptom of distress. Nobody is saying that's made up.

I think the irony is that in the process of not wanting to conform to how society expects particular genders to, individuals often expect others to help them conform to the expectations of a different gender (by using pronouns, allowing them in opposite sex toilets)… so there’s a case of not wanting cake whilst wanting it…..

Yes!

But if “the science” says dysmorphia is real, then I’m probably wrong!

Gender dysphoria is real in so far as some people experience distress about their bodies, feeling that they have an inner sense of "gender" that differs from their sex. So the distress is real, the cause is disputed... and as you say.....

Maybe there would be less of this if society was more accepting of people who don’t want to perform - what seems to me to be - extreme gender stereotypes.

Genuine dysmorphia definitely exists, but is rare.

We need to be much clearer about the difference between dysmorphia and normal discomfort around bodies changing during puberty, feeling uncomfortable in your skin, not fitting in. Everyone feels these things during puberty.

Meanwhile, other boys and girls are becoming more overtly masculine or feminine (weights at gym, steroids, false lashes, nails, thick makeup) So you feel you’re not fitting in with that. Maybe there would be less of this if society was more accepting of people who don’t want to perform - what seems to me to be - extreme gender stereotypes.

I agree, and have been fighting that corner from as soon as I could speak!

That's what being 'gender critical' is all about - critical of the gender stereotypes that restrict children's life choices, and lead some of them to think their bodies are 'the wrong body'.

There has been a re-enforcing of gender stereotypes in the past few decades - there was a bit of progress in the late 1980s and 90s, when, as older posters will confirm, kids tended to have the same pudding bowl haircut, the same track suit, probably with a dino on it, and the same little Kicker-style boots.

If you look at old photos, it's often hard to tell the girls from the boys.

Ditto Bay City Roller fans - they all had mullets and trousers with tartan down the side and jumpers with round necks and shirts with very long collars..

You could say that most people looked quite non-binary!

The GI-Joe-on- steroids< >Barbie-with-make-up-and-filters extremes facilitate a child getting the idea that are not really a boy, or not really a girl, because they can't fit into the stereotypes.

Like you say, let kids be kids, and be whatever kind of boy or whatever kind of girl they feel comfortable being, without imposing adult labels on them if they don't want to be a 'read boy's boy', or a girly princessy girl, or suggesting to them that they are in the wrong body, or that they can 'transition' away from their biological sex.

But if “the science” says dysmorphia is real, then I’m probably wrong!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that dysmorphia isn't real. It is however a treatable mental illness.

I agree with what you’re saying re. The post. I also think science does say dysmorphia exists.

NHS describes it. Pretty much says it’s just someone worrying about their appearance. But for me there’s a vast divide between worrying about your appearance and thinking (/ pretending / expecting others to pretend) you’re the opposite sex.

My personal point of view is that you worry incessantly about not fitting in or, conversely, about not being unique when you’re young.

Add being autistic into that and you have young people really not comfortable in their own skin, perhaps then concluding that they are in “wrong sex”. Meanwhile, other boys and girls are becoming more overtly masculine or feminine (weights at gym, steroids, false lashes, nails, thick makeup) So you feel you’re not fitting in with that. Maybe there would be less of this if society was more accepting of people who don’t want to perform - what seems to me to be - extreme gender stereotypes.

Kids need to be kids in short. But we accelerate their lives with hard GCSEs and the accompanying slog .

It’s too much!

But if “the science” says dysmorphia is real, then I’m probably wrong!

I agree.

You do not need everyone around you to lie, or take drugs and have surgery in order to be your 'authentic self'.

I have just had a thought, not very profound

All this 'accept us for who we really are' is really because the individual themselves cannot accept themselves for who they really are.