Wanting to discuss trans people with non gender critical folks

@Taztoy hi taz, I am sorry to read about your experience. I really am. Like a massive amount of women on this board and thread, I am also a survivor of male violence and sexual violence. Sadly we all have our stories to share but can’t always express them online because even though that would be the ideal way to get it out, especially for the neurodivergent community, we don’t want to be writing our traumas to end up in the wank banks of some sexual sadists. Maybe one day there will be a way of verifying who we say we are and having an anonymous space, but with guaranteed privacy. I do know other survivors who’ve found other women who’ve experienced similar attacks and rapes who’ve started facebook groups to share their experiences.

I don’t have a fully concrete reply to your trans question. I have 3 trans friends in my close friendship group. 2 TW and 1 TM.
I will share this, 2 of them are also survivors of CSA and the other was beaten so badly by their father for appearing to be gay, that the shame of their sexuality has been a burden until a later in life transition. And honestly that transition hasn’t made them any happier. (I’ve used they/them so I don’t use their pronouns, for anonymity and also I don’t want them to upset anybody)

I have worked closely with TW before also, who have been sex workers. This was over 25 years ago now. I believe they transitioned because women treated them with kindness, as where men abused them. These people had profound mental health problems.

I personally don’t believe a trans man is a man or a trans woman is a woman. My belief is they’re their own person, a trans man or a trans woman. And I think that they have their own lived experiences that I as a woman can’t relate to, the same way that my TW friends can’t related to periods, pregnancy, endometriosis, I can’t relate to hating having my body so much that I’d go through countless surgeries to change it. That I’d endure bigotry and abuse from the public, just to no longer say I’m a woman.

The trans issue is incredibly nuanced in my personal opinion. So when people say “genuine trans woman”, what they mean is a trans woman who isn’t a predatory male, using the guise of trans to access women’s spaces in order to cause women harm.
Or the men who crossdress for sexual pleasure, not because they have a deep affinity with womanhood and believe they’re in the wrong body, but because they get a kick out of it.

My personal belief is women deserve a protected space just for biological women. Whilst I’m happy to share with TW others aren’t so my opinion is irrelevant of what I’m comfortable with. Other women who aren’t deserve their spaces protected.
The problem is if men want to use our toilets, they could say they’re TM now, big, beefy, bearded TM and access our spaces that way. And yes someone will say, “you can always tell”, well I am sorry but I can’t. I’m sure there are ways to tell but I’m not able to personally.
Men have found ways to attack us and rape us, abuse and kill us without the need of being in bathrooms with us, without being in our changing rooms or even our prisons. I worry that we need to shift that focus back. We will always be raped by men. No matter what they’re wearing, if a man wants to rape a woman, that man will find a way.

I do think there is a lot of hate and bigotry towards TW especially. And that is because often the loudest TW voices have been from a place of disingenuous reasons to be in our spaces. Lots of TW have publicly been noted to have been paedophiles, women abusers and other such problematic individuals. They would not be what I class as genuine TW.
But I am asked, “how can you tell” and I say simply, you can’t. The same way poor posters on here have been married 17 years to perfect Peter and then discovered through an iCloud message he’d been sleeping with escorts/downloading CSAM etc, you can’t always tell a predator. Which is why I think the TW hate needs redirecting because the stories I know from TW are plainly horrifying. Their are so many TW victims who need protection from men, but that isn’t the job of only women, it’s the job of everyone who isn’t a fucking predatory man to work together and find a solution for. I know I’ll get backlash for that, that’s ok, but everyone has a responsibility of safeguarding. We need to protect everyone from predators. That’s my opinion, I don’t care how you present or look or dress, the fight shouldn’t be between women/TW/feminist/TERF (not using as a slur, I don’t believe it is a slur btw) but we need to all accept the world is changing. Trans people have existed for centuries and they are a small minority of the population, predators however are a large percentage. We should be able to protect one another. Do you have to believe that a person can change biological sex? No, I don’t and I love my Trans friends. Do you have to treat people with respect? Absolutely, even if you disagree.

I have spoken at length about my uncle who suffers psychosis. He is allowed out and about and visits the same few places locally to him. The local cafe, the market, sometimes pops into the older people coffee mornings. He is in his early 50s and harmless but believes that he partied with the Beatles, that he was best friends with the Rolling Stones, that he had a fling with Kylie Minogue. All absolute bollocks of course. People just say, “lovely to see you Ken, send ringo our regards” make him a brew and send him on his way. I’m not saying that we should pacify Transfolk the same way but the kindness of not belittling them when out in the community should stand. I’ve been with my friend (TW) and had people walk past us and say, “hello Madame, to me, then, hello sir”, just to be cruel. That needs to stop.

The world is a cruel and dangerous and shitty place for those of us who want to live with peace, dignity and fearlessly away from violence and sexual violence. We are living in times where AI images are being made of the daughters and grandchildren of deeply fucked up peadophiles, where domestic abuse is on the rise, women are being subjected to scrutiny and harassment online for not looking like they’re made by the same creators as Barbie. There is so much hate and prejudice towards women and I worry that energy is being wasted with the hate that is going to TW. Maybe the push back should be towards men who want to hurt us regardless of what they present as, and more so the damage they wish to cause us. Because not every TW is a threat and no you can’t always tell, but those men out there sharing red pill propaganda or being exposed as a domestic abuser, they are the worst threat and they’re getting a very easy ride comparatively to a TW who does just want to exist.

OP I don't think that this is the best way to deal with your Trauma
Are you able to get any help in real life ?

I know this is a derail, but I'm fascinated by the explanation quoted above of how TIMs "know" they're really women because women start each day by finding a feminine outfit, and grooming ourselves according to womanly beauty standards".

Does anyone know what these womanly beauty standards are as I'm not sure I'm compliant? I did change my trousers before going to the supermarket yesterday, as I realised I'd spilt breakfast (boiled egg with Marmite soldiers) down myself.

The 2004 Gender Recognition Act contains a clause specifically legislating against a woman identifying as a man in order to inherit an earldom over her younger brother.

So it is written down in black and white as the law of the land, that actually despite paperwork, pronouns, hormones, name changes, hair cuts, gendered behaviours, statistical constellations of data points, sincere belief, your mum saying "of course you are!" and celebrity hand-wringing a woman cannot become a man because this might inconvenience men.

A man can of course become a woman because it only inconveniences women.

I think this answers your question OP.

This falls down when you just ask the question of what does being a woman feel like?

I'm a woman, I was born female so it says on my birth certificate, I look in the mirror and I see that I'm a woman, I bleed monthly which is what women do, I'm able to get pregnant which is what women do too.

But do I feel like a woman? I don't know what that even means, I just am a woman and I feel like me. But I don't wear dresses and makeup, I ride motorcycles and collect lego (cars not flowers) I like mowing the lawn and doing DIY.

So what the hell does it mean when a man says that they just feel like they are a woman. It makes zero sense to me but can a trans woman explain?

TPA (transparentlyannoyed) says “listen to trans people” whilst continuously ignoring the transman who posts on this board.

TPA says “trans people are who they say they are but some men pretend to be trans”.

TPA despite being told it’s about men not trans, continues to accuse the posters of this board of being transphobic bigots, however, Seethlaw, the transman mentioned above, says we are not transphobic and are just protecting women’s single sex provision. So, do we listen to trans people or not?

TPA proves that there isn’t one coherent argument for treating some men as women just because they say so.

I know youve said this isnt your opinion. But its exactly why we need people who do believe this to come and explain.

Because when I say "I just know that I'm a woman" I mean that I'm an adult human female. Which is something a man never can be. So what do they mean by "woman" because its a different meaning to me. If they mean some kind of inner essence, pink brain, loves sparkly stuff etc etc then im not a woman and theres no word left for me.

And that’s no problem. If people believe themselves to be ‘trans’, that’s their prerogative.

But men are not ‘genuinely’ women because they say so. We should be pushing back hard on this utter nonsense.

Some people identify as/powerfully believe they are x, y, z, lots of words and theories and concepts that matter deeply to them - great. Crack on. Have fun. Whatever.

The issue is when they require their inner self expression to override other people's needs, rights, beliefs and concepts. Such as to express their sense of being a 'woman' (in a biologically male body) by using a women's single sex space, which harms and excludes actual women.

That's where the crunch comes, that is the issue. That other people's freedoms and needs and rights put boundaries up against the absolute expression of inner self and personal beliefs.

And that's where you get the real issues within this belief which is basically that 'trans' is a different and higher caste of human with more rights than lesser sorts of humans. And then it gets really ugly because they start explaining away why lesser sorts of humans don't matter, that it's ok to harm and use them with lots of justification and trashy 'science', and lots of double standard thinking about minimizing and dismissing those harms while valuing the more important person in ways they cannot extend to others. (Their sense of self matters, other people's sense of self is disposable. Their sense of safety and comfort matters, but other people's sense of self is selfish and should be overriden. Etc etc etc.) It's one of the main hallmarks of abusive behaviour, it's basic stuff, all part of the 'you must never hurt me, but if you annoy and provoke me then it's justifiable for me to hurt you' kind of stuff women run into in DV all the time. And once the justifying starts, the lid comes off and the racism, sexism and homophobia and ageism then goes berserk. And in many cases, sociopathy and from many men activists, extreme sexually violent ideation follows. It is not a belief set compatible with social equality and respect for others, that's the crunch point.

Hide this thread Taz, you've been through enough, and you're only going to be told again in depth why to someone who is a strong believer in this higher caste why they feel you don't matter and should not be entitled to safety, happiness or equality with a man. Thankfully the law exists to protect you and other groups from those who believe things like this.

Ok, so trans-identified males can fight for their own trans spaces/sports/prison wings etc. They already have the same human rights as everyone else, male and female. Quite rightly. And they have their 'extra' rights against discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment under the EA. So if they want even more than that, they can argue their case honestly, on the basis of being genuinely trans-identified, but not of course on the basis of being women. Because they're not.

Surely it is though, because TRAs are always visiting the board, yet at the same time, it probably felt a bit safer for the OP to post here than, say, joining a TRA reddit/other social media platform, because at least some here know her posting history (as per her post above, she was raped).

Does this apply to other things people claim about themselves? Or is 'trans' a special case and if so, why?

But @TransParentlyAnnoyed said some men pretended to be trans. How do we know who is “truly trans” and who is pretending? What is the benchmark or criteria?

I think the issue, cognitively, seems to come from a sincere and profoundly held belief that everything you and I understand to be established scientific fact - that sex is chromosomally defined and immutable - is out of date/disproven/fallacious. To many hardened gender ideologues they believe that we are factually wrong and are the ‘flat earthers’.

It’s part of some sort of counter factual cultural movement that seems to gained traction both prior to and as a response to covid - things like vaccine cynicism, erosion of respect for expertise in medicine etc. IMHO social media drives it too because an entire generation seems to believe that memes on tiktok and insta are more reliable sources than textbooks and reports written by experts. My trans DD genuinely believes that I grew her wrong, that science will (can) enable the 3d printing of a dna matched phallus that could be attached without risk of tissue rejection for example. She will no more readily hear that her understanding of science is wrong than a devout Christian or Muslim would countenance the idea that God/Allah does not exist.

They are lead by faith, misinformation, and a belief that as humankind has been wrong before (eg in believing that the earth is flat) that there is no such thing as permanent fact.

@Taztoy I know this doesn’t really answer your question as I am as gender ideology atheistic as you are (for similar reasons) but I truly believe we cannot actually bridge our understanding with theirs - there is no middle ground when we both hold what we understand to be fact-based truths.

Taztoy, please don't feel you need to say sorry. The thread poses a very valid question (which no TRA will be able to answer with any logic, because you're right -there is none) . You have nothing to apologise for. I remember some of your posting history and it sounds like you're very vulnerable at the moment so please look after yourself.

If they say they're trans, they're genuine

What do you think is wrong with the responses?

@Conversationalcheddar
If you woke up tomorrow in a man's body, and once over the shock decided to go swimming to clear your head, would you take your male body into the female changing rooms, knowing that other women might find that alarming & scary?

Why? People are having a civilised discussion. We have a mix of TRA and GC. No one is being mean or rude.

But I say I’m Queen Cleopatra reborn @TransParentlyAnnoyed… so why doesn’t that fit your ethos? Trans people are, quite simply, who they say they are?
can other people say, well “I say I’m X, and you just have to accept that despite all the evidence to the contrary” ?

I think this would be a good conversation to have but this isn’t the best place to have it. As you can see.

And there is never an explanation from any of the TRAs as to why the logical endpoint of their faith is that 'males should be allowed to use females' sex-based rights'.
Why why why can't this male-based, powerful, wealthy, middle class, often white, lobby fight for more third/fourth/different/extra spaces, instead of insisting on using female rights and spaces?
Their huge power is evidenced by the fact that their faith has been supported at government level and in multi-national corporations in many countries the world over. They are, by their very success, blatant evidence of the power of the patriarchy. If they were in good faith, they would use that power and money in a less aggressively misogynist way.

They may be gay, bi, ace, pan or trans. Or have a disability you don't understand because you can't see it and haven't experienced it.

ace, pan or 'trans' how many more words can we make up for absolute nonsense, where does it end?

Why should anyone take any of it seriously, they're all products of imagination, there not 'disabilities', they're self inflicted fancy's, and maybe it's time these fantasists started to do the listening. They can't live a life indulging in their self absorbed fantasies, reality is a shared common existence , it isn't created a billion times over everyday by individuals 'lived experience'.

@Taztoymy experiences of male behaviour aren't the same as yours, but my father was awful, a violent, bullying man, and by the age of about 13 I was terrified of men and the feeling persisted for years. Female only spaces helped me cope, and still do.

We've got to a position, somehow, where it's been decided that people who lie about what sex they are need special legal protections. I don't really understand how we got here or why none of the adults in the room stood up and said no. But here we are.

I think for things as they stand now, social media has a lot to answer for. I think a lot of people enjoy a bit of safely anonymous misogynistic bullying, and this topic allows they to do it whilst also patting themselves on the back for being morally superior. I think men hate women far more than most women realise, I think a lot of women are naive as to the true nature of a lot of men, and I think we have been too willing to ignore the sexual element of lying about what sex you are. I have even heard the pro trans bullshit from my own mother, who just left me reeling when she jumped at the chance to tell me she didn't have a problem with men in female only spaces. This is the woman who stayed in an abusive marriage for 25 years.

I don't think people who say twaw actually believe it. They know it isn't true.

You aren't alone in feeling this way @Taztoy

@TransParentlyAnnoyed you say “A few cis men seem to have tried to gain access to female prisons”, but then say we must believe people when they tell us who they are. Are you saying we should not have believed these men? Why? Why are they not trans? They said they were trans so according to you we should believe them.