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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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9
DialSquare · 27/08/2026 07:19

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Myalternate · 27/08/2026 07:20

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 07:05

Do it for everyone else then.

You can't can you?

I don’t need to. Everyone else can see the truth for themselves. It’s you that can’t.

nutmeg7 · 27/08/2026 07:25

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sanluca · 27/08/2026 07:27

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 06:56

Yes & no. Depends on the disadvantage in the particular situation & the prevailing cultural expectations. That's why assessing proportionality/ balancing rights matters according to the particular circumstances matters.

So the disadvantage to women and girls when sports, services and facilities are mixed sex is that it breaches their human rights as described in article 14 of the ECHR as it discriminated directly based on sex in circumstances where someone's sex is important.
To provide clarity in law the UK have made it clear where exceptions in the EA apply, such as toilets, changing room and sports amongst others, article 14 is applied.

Are you now going to state article 14 is bigotry?

nutmeg7 · 27/08/2026 07:29

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KnottyAuty · 27/08/2026 07:47

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 05:36

The bigotry is more regarding the implication of harmful stereotypes against trans people as either transitory 'tom boys' or dangerous predators.

Its indeed interesting that those who purport to be against harmful stereotypes, certainly don't mind applying them when convenient.

"In an attempt to demonstrate her understanding of where transgender people are coming from, Rowling even says she too might have considered transitioning had the option been available to her as a teenager. “The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge, “ she writes. “If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.”

The belief that gender identity is a phase, a choice, or something that is influenced by other people is a stereotype that minimizes the struggles of anyone who experiences gender dysphoria. Transitioning isn’t easy but Rowling seems to be saying people can choose to transition on a whim simply because they think it’s more convenient to be one gender than another.

In her essay, Rowling goes on to reveal that she is a domestic and sexual abuse survivor and those experiences have made her even more focused on biology, “out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.”

Referring to the debate around public washrooms in particular, Rowling claims she’s concerned for the safety of cis women and girls. “When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman—and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones—then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”

Throughout her essay, Rowling talks about how easy it is for a biological man to become a woman in the eyes of the law and how potentially dangerous that could be for cis women. The fear that a large number of transgender women are just men who want to be able to use women-only spaces unchecked is a harmful stereotype that paints trans people as predators instead of just human beings who want to live their lives.

In her attempt to defend herself against the TERF label, Rowling just ended up providing more solid evidence that she is one. She works hard to disguise her views as feminism and genuine concern for the wellbeing of all women, but relies heavily on a number unsubstantiated opinions about trans people that the community has been fighting against for years. Rowling sees herself as highly educated on transgender issues but she still fails to see how her views—and her insistence on using her huge platform to promote them—are hurting transgender people."

https://inmagazine.ca/2020/06/j-k-rowlings-history-of-transphobia/

Not sure why Youve quoted a magazine article about JKR. It would be more impressive and interesting if you had expressed your own views based on JKR’s own words.

What you consider to be harming trans people, many others see as protecting women and girls from misogyny. Your views appear to be deeply sexist.

if transitioning/gender identity is always deeply held or innate can can you please explain the obvious contradictions to your claim? Eg de-transitioned? Pips Bunce etc? And if you could explain what is a trans identity while you’re at it tgat would be really helpful?

ETA - oops I can see im not the only one who is unimpressed by you quoting someone else’s opinion rather than using JKR’s own words.., primary evidence is more highly valued here

Soontobe60 · 27/08/2026 07:51

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IonianNerveGrip · 27/08/2026 07:56

Wonder what Emma and Daniel make of this!

Soontobe60 · 27/08/2026 07:56

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 05:53

Just like some Mexicans happen to be rapists or some Haitians 'eat cats & dogs'?

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. […] They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people”

-Trump

The difference being that an Englishman, for example, wouldn’t pretend to be a Mexican to have unchallenged access to female only spaces. Neither would a Mexican pretend to be Haitian to be able to eat cats and dogs.
Your analogy makes no sense.
On the other hand, men worldwide have pretended to be something they are not in order to access children or female only spaces. Think priests, teachers, doctors, scout leaders, the list is endless. Maybe you could help us out by explaining which are the men invading our single sex spaces with ulterior motives and which ones are genuine?

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:04

Nellodee · 27/08/2026 07:11

Rowling states that she may have wanted to transition at some point had the option been available. The article states that this show she feels that the desire to transition is transient and a choice.

This is a logical some/all fallacy. Rowling stating that she may have had a transient desire to transition is not the same ad her saying all desire to transition is transient.

The negation of her statement, if she were completely wrong would be “No desire to transition us transient”. Since detransitioners exist, this negation is clearly incorrect. If the negation is incorrect, then Rowlings position, that it can be transient, is valid and truthful.

Indeed, Rowling has stated that she believes gender dysphoric is real and in some adults can be relieved by surgery on a number of occasions.

Sadly, logic isn’t really something that is valued by those who wish to hate her.

Trump could make the exact same arguments about his 'Mexicans' statement. Why is this any different? And some make the exact same claims about Muslims as terrorists.

Making a show of pointing to exceptions from the norm to justify exclusion effectively smears the whole as being under suspicion. And Its in far right playbook to exploit instances as evidence of the necessity for exclusion.

The logical fallacy here is know as a faulty generalisation & it occurs particularly regarding minorities when a person draws a broad, sweeping conclusion about an entire demographic or minority group based on the actions or traits of a single individual or a tiny fringe minority AKA detransitioners.

Lovelyview · 27/08/2026 08:07

I've said on another thread that the love Tom Felton got for playing Draco Malfoy on Broadway has been a delight. I hope Rupert gets the same. Although I find Tom much more charming in his delight at being part of the Potterverse

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:09

sanluca · 27/08/2026 07:27

So the disadvantage to women and girls when sports, services and facilities are mixed sex is that it breaches their human rights as described in article 14 of the ECHR as it discriminated directly based on sex in circumstances where someone's sex is important.
To provide clarity in law the UK have made it clear where exceptions in the EA apply, such as toilets, changing room and sports amongst others, article 14 is applied.

Are you now going to state article 14 is bigotry?

Um, you forgot the proportionality bit…

27
(1)
A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if—
(a)
any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and
(b)
the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2)
The condition is that only persons of that sex have need of the service.
(3)
The condition is that—
(a)
the service is also provided jointly for persons of both sexes, and
(b)
the service would be insufficiently effective were it only to be provided jointly.
(4)
The condition is that—
(a)
a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective, and
(b)
the extent to which the service is required by persons of each sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services.
(5)
The condition is that the service is provided at a place which is, or is part of—
(a)
a hospital, or
(b)
another establishment for persons requiring special care, supervision or attention.
(6)
The condition is that—
(a)
the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and
(b)
the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.
(7)
The condition is that—
(a)
there is likely to be physical contact between a person (A) to whom the service is provided and another person (B), and
(b)
B might reasonably object if A were not of the same sex as B.
(8)
This paragraph applies to a person exercising a public function in relation to the provision of a service as it applies to the person providing the service.

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:10

Soontobe60 · 27/08/2026 07:56

The difference being that an Englishman, for example, wouldn’t pretend to be a Mexican to have unchallenged access to female only spaces. Neither would a Mexican pretend to be Haitian to be able to eat cats and dogs.
Your analogy makes no sense.
On the other hand, men worldwide have pretended to be something they are not in order to access children or female only spaces. Think priests, teachers, doctors, scout leaders, the list is endless. Maybe you could help us out by explaining which are the men invading our single sex spaces with ulterior motives and which ones are genuine?

hall of fame game missed the point GIF
Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:11

KnottyAuty · 27/08/2026 07:47

Not sure why Youve quoted a magazine article about JKR. It would be more impressive and interesting if you had expressed your own views based on JKR’s own words.

What you consider to be harming trans people, many others see as protecting women and girls from misogyny. Your views appear to be deeply sexist.

if transitioning/gender identity is always deeply held or innate can can you please explain the obvious contradictions to your claim? Eg de-transitioned? Pips Bunce etc? And if you could explain what is a trans identity while you’re at it tgat would be really helpful?

ETA - oops I can see im not the only one who is unimpressed by you quoting someone else’s opinion rather than using JKR’s own words.., primary evidence is more highly valued here

The point is perpetuating harmful stereotypes. You know, what you people say you are supposed to be against.

BackToLurk · 27/08/2026 08:14

It’s interesting that RG has joined the cast as it suggests he (or his agent) may believe that there has been a sea change in attitudes either toward women’s rights or toward the idea that everyone has to be vilified and ostracised if we don’t agree with every word they say. Either is welcome.

hastenotwaste · 27/08/2026 08:14

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:04

Trump could make the exact same arguments about his 'Mexicans' statement. Why is this any different? And some make the exact same claims about Muslims as terrorists.

Making a show of pointing to exceptions from the norm to justify exclusion effectively smears the whole as being under suspicion. And Its in far right playbook to exploit instances as evidence of the necessity for exclusion.

The logical fallacy here is know as a faulty generalisation & it occurs particularly regarding minorities when a person draws a broad, sweeping conclusion about an entire demographic or minority group based on the actions or traits of a single individual or a tiny fringe minority AKA detransitioners.

Men are not a minority. Men commit around 98% of sexual crimes. It is not a faulty generalisation to exclude men from places (not society!) where women are particularly vulnerable. HTH

nutmeg7 · 27/08/2026 08:17

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:09

Um, you forgot the proportionality bit…

27
(1)
A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if—
(a)
any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and
(b)
the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2)
The condition is that only persons of that sex have need of the service.
(3)
The condition is that—
(a)
the service is also provided jointly for persons of both sexes, and
(b)
the service would be insufficiently effective were it only to be provided jointly.
(4)
The condition is that—
(a)
a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective, and
(b)
the extent to which the service is required by persons of each sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services.
(5)
The condition is that the service is provided at a place which is, or is part of—
(a)
a hospital, or
(b)
another establishment for persons requiring special care, supervision or attention.
(6)
The condition is that—
(a)
the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and
(b)
the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.
(7)
The condition is that—
(a)
there is likely to be physical contact between a person (A) to whom the service is provided and another person (B), and
(b)
B might reasonably object if A were not of the same sex as B.
(8)
This paragraph applies to a person exercising a public function in relation to the provision of a service as it applies to the person providing the service.

Oh and you forgot the “legitimate aim”.

Females aren’t actually human to you are we? You don’t think fairness and safety in sport for females is a legitimate aim.

You just want to use us to validate an “identity” that is false and so needs to be propped up.

One male person in a female sports space damages the experience, achievement and aspirations of a lot of female people involved in that sport and observing it. Male people do not have a place in female sports. You are not female.

Soontobe60 · 27/08/2026 08:17

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 06:56

Yes & no. Depends on the disadvantage in the particular situation & the prevailing cultural expectations. That's why assessing proportionality/ balancing rights matters according to the particular circumstances matters.

Do you know WHY most sports are single sex?

Imdunfer · 27/08/2026 08:18

Lemonorzo · 26/08/2026 22:59

At some point it has to occur to people that actors etc will say things because they feel compelled to, not because they believe it.
It’s clear that JK isn’t getting cancelled and HP is not going away so they feel safe to backtrack.

I doubt that he's backtracking on his views at all, but the paycheck for Broadway is just too huge to turn down.

Katkins17 · 27/08/2026 08:21

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 01:21

I don't think agreeing to still be associated with an idea is in any way a concession to the creator's moral or political stance or helps perpetuate it. John Lithgow made this point recently that the work still maintains its value regardless & that's why he agreed to still be part of HP.

Just like the US constitution still maintains its moral relevance despite being written by slave owners, JKR's immoral position shouldn't matter particularly because the ideas in HP are contra to it that effectively inculcate generations of people against JKR's personal bigotry which only has a finite existence.

Edited

Wow … what a sanctimonious word salad that was. I bet you wrote that with a straight face whilst smoking a pipe.

A woman’s right to safety, boundaries and the right to say ‘no’ is not bigotry… BTW.

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:21

hastenotwaste · 27/08/2026 08:14

Men are not a minority. Men commit around 98% of sexual crimes. It is not a faulty generalisation to exclude men from places (not society!) where women are particularly vulnerable. HTH

The subject matter is trans men & trans women who are a minority.

The logical error being made here is that all men offend at the same rate when the data shows the substantially higher rates of offending are young, poor, straight males as opposed to older wealthier or homosexual males. In fact the research shows homosexual males violently offend at a lower rate than lesbians.

And lets not conveniently forget detransitioners where the data is particularly low.

In other words demographics matter to avoid faulty generalisations & oversimplifications.

MagpiePi · 27/08/2026 08:22

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:04

Trump could make the exact same arguments about his 'Mexicans' statement. Why is this any different? And some make the exact same claims about Muslims as terrorists.

Making a show of pointing to exceptions from the norm to justify exclusion effectively smears the whole as being under suspicion. And Its in far right playbook to exploit instances as evidence of the necessity for exclusion.

The logical fallacy here is know as a faulty generalisation & it occurs particularly regarding minorities when a person draws a broad, sweeping conclusion about an entire demographic or minority group based on the actions or traits of a single individual or a tiny fringe minority AKA detransitioners.

Making a show of pointing to exceptions from the norm to justify exclusion effectively smears the whole as being under suspicion.

So what you are saying is few men will rape women if they are allowed into women's spaces but that is ok because they are the exception and NAMALT. Let's not forget rule 10, The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

And Its in far right playbook to exploit instances as evidence of the necessity for exclusion.

ie. Women are far right bigots if they want to exclude men because of evidenced instances that they get raped when men are not excluded from women's spaces.

DialSquare · 27/08/2026 08:25

Lovelyview · 27/08/2026 08:07

I've said on another thread that the love Tom Felton got for playing Draco Malfoy on Broadway has been a delight. I hope Rupert gets the same. Although I find Tom much more charming in his delight at being part of the Potterverse

And Tom has always shown JKR respect. He never felt the need to virtue signal, unlike the other 3.

Northernlightsss · 27/08/2026 08:26

nutmeg7 · 27/08/2026 08:17

Oh and you forgot the “legitimate aim”.

Females aren’t actually human to you are we? You don’t think fairness and safety in sport for females is a legitimate aim.

You just want to use us to validate an “identity” that is false and so needs to be propped up.

One male person in a female sports space damages the experience, achievement and aspirations of a lot of female people involved in that sport and observing it. Male people do not have a place in female sports. You are not female.

Females aren’t actually human to you are we? You don’t think fairness and safety in sport for females is a legitimate aim.

Of course it is. I just don't think it applies in all sporting circumstances like for example a female soccer team for six year olds. The details kinda matter because a disadvantage needs to be proven hence the proportionality requirement.

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