Transitioning or therapy as the treatment for gender dysphoria

That doesn't really answer my question though does it? Paying for one's sex organs to be removed is one thing. Re-fashioning one's body into a simulacrum of the opposite sex infringes on other people's personal values, which may include not wanting to be deceived about a person's sex, not appreciating the appropriation of 'womanface' (or 'manface'), not wanting to be expected to refer to this person using opposite sex pronouns and not wanting to find this person in their single-sex spaces and on their single-sex sports teams.

You cannot just shout 'personal values' at every objection, because everyone has 'personal values' and sometimes there is a clash. And when it is men's 'personal values' over-riding women's, we should all be paying close attention.

Therapy is good for gender dysphoria.

Why not just remove the offending male sex organs and be done with it?

PERSONAL VALUES.

You really have a problem with accepting that other people's personal values don't conform to yours don't you? That's why you are avoiding what is the crux of the issue here which is in essence non conformity to your personal opinion.

You don't seem to understand humans are individuals which means we don't all think the same or have the same values AND as such have right to our own values.

Stop being disingenuous and yes go and study a basic biology book. We are adult human females, we have XX chromosomes, we produce large gametes. Like any organism, some things work or sometimes not, that doesn't stop us being women.
Yes we are socialised different but in the vast majority of the world (that is not this western bubble we live in) women are still opressed and discriminated against because of their sex. We still suffer male violence we still have to shut up and put up for the sake of families , children, a roof over our heads, etc..
Feminism is for women, it was born to deal with these issues.
It's not to defend men to keep intimidating us, taking our spaces, mainsplaining to us what it is to be a woman.

Now you have pivoted to 'PERSONAL VALUES'. Your argument is wriggling all over the place.

I'll tell you what I find weird. I can understand that a man might be unhappy being male and might, ultimately, after many years of therapy, decide that he must have his penis and testicles/testes removed (though never his prostate, for some reason). What I don't understand is why he doesn't just stop there. Why try to reshape the penis into a hole in roughly the same place where a vulva would be in a woman? Why take hormones to produce shapes that mimic women's breasts on his chest?
Why not just remove the offending male sex organs and be done with it?

As mentioned twice already upthread, health outcomes matter too.

Some people really, really want to have healthy limbs amputated. Either because of an amputation fetish or because of a glitch in the area of the brain that creates a map of their body.

A lot of people who've had this done are very happy with the results. Nevertheless, it's illegal in virtually every country. Because there are some things doctors shouldn't do.

A trans-identifying male can be socialised the same as a female if he transitions at a young age

Male and female babies are treated differently from birth.

Over 80% of children who express sustained gender distress or a trans identity as young children grow out of it - if not given affirmative treatments - by the time they finish going through puberty.

If you can't distinguish between 'truly' trans and a passing phase until after puberty, and if babies are socialised as their sex from the moment they are born, how do you make the decision to transition a child young enough to avoid being socialised as the other sex?

Transition all of them and you're wrong at 8 times out of 10. You've caused massive, irreversible medical harm to a child who can't understand the consequences and can't consent 8 times out of 10.

I do not see why the treatment regime for someone else's undoubted troubles should be to force my language, behaviour and pretend-acceptance for their benefit; any more than I see why the treatment regime for my (equally troubling) poverty should be to force someone else to transfer money from their bank account directly to mine.

And do you not think that's a problem in itself - that physical health outcomes have not been treated globally as key? That they have been globally bypassed, neglected, de-prioritised and inadequately researched? Because that's my point.

No because trade offs matter. As I said, lots of medical treatments have serious costs but they are outweighed by the benefits.

I never said patient satisfaction was the only measure but a key one. Health outcomes matter too as stated.

And do you not think that's a problem in itself - that physical health outcomes have not been treated globally as key? That they have been globally bypassed, neglected, de-prioritised and inadequately researched? Because that's my point.

Patient satisfaction is the weakest outcome measure. Patients can feel "satisfied" with treatments that are horribly bad for them.

But very low dissatisfaction rates don't reflect any serious regret so whatever the costs are outweighed by the benefits.

I suggest you read a biology textbook. Any will do. One at primary school level should be enough

Again, a nose job is comparable depending on personal values. You seem to be avoiding this point.

After having my two children I thought about improving my breasts but for me personally, I find silicone implants a hideously creepy grotesque solution. That's just my subjective view that is clearly at odds with millions of women who consider such an intervention as like changing their fashion choices. I would have a face lift though, but many women are horrified by these. See? PERSONAL VALUES matter.

@FairHippopotama The difference is that their dysphoria relates to something that is true (the disconnect between their sex and the sex their brain thinks of them as), whereas disorders like anorexia relate to things which aren't true.

But of course gender dysphoria relates to things that aren't true. Men aren't women, and women aren't men. Obviously

What's wrong with calling trans-identified males 'women' or 'she'? There's no reason you can't separate gender from sex here.

The words "women" and "she" are already taken. You can't have been on this board long if you don't see the problem with calling TiMs "woman" or "she". If TiMs are women, what does women-only toilets mean? What does women's sport mean? What is a women's refuge? If TiMs are "women", these places and resources would be open to "women + some men". We need a word that defines us and only us (and it's not bloody "cis women"). The same goes for "she". It's wrong, misleading, and difficult for many of us to use, especially those who don't like to lie - this includes, but is not exclusive to, autistic people.

You can separate gender from sex, but you need a new word for it. Go on, make one up and start a trend. Or, we could just call them TiMs and TiFs.

Fertility is not the only trade off.

if only it were that simple. It’s a lifetime of managing a surgical site that doesn’t function like it should. Basic functions like urination, toileting. Hair growing and causing infection where hair shouldn’t grow. Pain, daily and constant.

it’s a surgery that leaves someone with a lifetime of management. More comparable to stomas maybe, yes it solves a problem, but would anyone choose a lifetime of stoma management if they really didn’t need to?

if mental health is “so severely compromised” then surely the treatment is for the mental health issues, not physical surgery.

I never suggested doctors shouldn't be involved in the first place. That goes without saying surely.

Patient satisfaction & better mental health outcomes are key acceptable measures of of success that major medical organisations globally say that gender affirming care provides. Expertise matters.

I think you mean dissatisfaction rates.

We weren't talking about silicone implants, and I haven't commented on whether I consider them 'perfectly acceptable' or not. You have pivoted to that, from nose jobs, for some reason.

A nose job is not comparable to surgery for gender dysphoria, such as mastectomy and neo-phallus/neo-vagina construction.

You took an absurd argument and tried to make it in to a reasonable one, with your nose job story.

"What's wrong with calling trans-identified males 'women' or 'she'? There's no reason you can't separate gender from sex here."

What do we call ourselves then? We are not the same, not in body nor in socialisation. Our experiences are not the same. How do we talk about our female only experiences, menstruation, birth, miscarriage, that feeling of being the only young woman and walking into a room full of men and wanting to disappear...
I am Latin, I was socialised to be an asset , to live a supporting role. Boys were taught they could be whatever they want.
All my life I had to deal with the fallout of that. A man grown in male privilege can not possibly comprehend what it really means - being a woman - and none of them want the discrimination, the mainsplaining, the "now let the men decide" side of things.
I absolutely refuse to give men the name we have that is ours.

Patients only get to weigh up costs and benefits after doctors have already weighed up the costs and benefits and decided that a treatment is likely to be successful and beneficial. Otherwise patients don't get offered the treatment in the first place. It's only "up to the individual" after the doctors decide the treatment is within the scope of reasonable treatments for the problem.

You may hate your toes and think your toes don't matter, and you may think your toes are no use when your mental health is severely compromised. A doctor still isn't going to treat your mental health problems by cutting your perfectly normal toes off. No matter that you desperately want them removed. It's not about your priorities as an individual. It's about the doctors' judgment.

And medical interventions for transition are not "successful" in the usual sense of the word. They are only "successful" if you have a below the basement standard of what "success" means. They are terrible bodges.

But its comparable depending upon the value an individual places upon their 'bits'. We aren't talking about your values here but someone else's don't forget.

I imagine big nose offspring are treated no different from any other offspring who happen to inherit 'undesirable traits' from their parents.

And fake breasts will never be the same as real ones. So what? If they are content with the outcome & it appears that they are given the satisfaction rates are 1% what's the big deal?

If stitching giant plastic bags of silicone to ones chest is perfectly acceptable & normalised I really don't see the difference particularly given breast enhancements aren't without problems like loss of sensitivity or challenges with cancer detection.

Ouch, looks like I hit a nerve.

A nose job alters the size and shape of a nose. It is still a functioning nose after surgery.
A penis being re-fashioned into a 'neo-vagina', for example, is now a non-functioning and irretrievably damaged penis and will never be a vagina.
You are correct that no-one can change species. Just as no-one can change sex.

It's not really comparable since nose jobs are very minor compared to gender reassigment medicaitons and surgeries and they don't have the same range or likelihood of physically devastasting effects. Though even nose jobs can be devastating when they do go wrong.

And I sometimes wonder what happens when women have nose jobs and lead their best lives and meet their dream man... and have children whose noses take after their mother's. I wonder what the psychological effect is on these women and on their children.