Transitioning or therapy as the treatment for gender dysphoria

If a man perform female roles, behaviours and expressions, it doesnt demonstrate that man is a woman, it demonstrates that the roles, behaviours and expressions can be performed by both men and women.

FairHippopotama · Yesterday 13:52
Most trans rights activists will tell you that all who claim to have gender dysphoria are valid in their feelings and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is always transitioning--both socially (e.g. pronouns, clothing) and medically (e.g. hormone therapy, mastectomy). These transitions should be accepted by society.

It is worth mentioning that trans rights activists campaigned and won to make sure that gender dysphoria was not required to be trans.
Hence the push for self ID.

TRAs have worked long and hard to make sure that being trans has no measurable component/attributes and is solely based on how someone feels.

Many trans people never go on hormones, medically transition or have any sort of therapy.

I could say exactly the same about you …except I would be correct.

I’ll leave you to it @Tottenhamhotflushes
You are clearly tooling up to spend yet another Sunday arguing about this

Why is it a cheap shot to be thankful that you aren’t spouting these views in front of children or teens?

and why is it a cheap shot to presume you spend an unhealthy amount of time on SM.

Do you by chance… live alone and spend a lot of time alone? On SM and thinking about this issue and arguing online about it?

So you point is to take a cheap shot because you feel challenged by uncomfortable ideas?

Fair enough.

I’ll guess

No you don’t have kids or teens
Yes you do spend an unhealthy amount of time on SM

The former… I am very glad of
the latter… I am not the least bit surprised

I guess you don’t want to answer @backformoreofthesame

But I would hedge a bet that what made you snap out of thinking you wanted to be a boy was a combination

1. time
2. your brain developing as you aged from a child/ teen
3. no longer around the bullies

Your point?

@Tottenhamhotflushes do you have kids? Teens? Spend a LOT of time on SM?

Are you seriously saying socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and norms that a culture assigns to biological sex categories doesn't exist? You realise you are denying what's self evidently in front of your face?

And sociology wouldn't exist as a legitimate academic subject if it couldn't back up its claims with evidence of social behaviours.

So it’s not a real fact. It’s not something you can test and prove. Not everyone conforms to it and it doesn’t hold true in every case. Sex does.

In sociology gender is treated as a social fact. It represents the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and norms that a culture assigns to biological sex categories which are facts. While biological sex refers to physical and genetic traits, gender is shaped by social interactions, history, and institutions.

When I was growing up, it wasn't uncommon for white kids to refuse to use an Asian kid's full name, and dictate which name they would be known by instead.

Same as it was common for gay couples and Black people to be hounded out of their homes. Always with the excuse that white cishets didn't want them Around Our Women And Kids, and that they didn't like looking at them.

That's the ugly truth of bigotry. People convince themselves they're righteous in targeting a minority. They dehumanise them by inventing stories about how different they are, how incompatible with the rest of society.

Above all, they justify their own repulsion at difference, at people who look different to them with pseudoscience. When all it is, is bigotry and ignorance.

Being trans is normal. Period.

Well, there is no therapy. At all.

CAMHS has been repeatedly defunded by successive gvernments and will only take kids who have been repeatedly admitted to A&E. Even then, group therapy is a handout xeroxed from a therapy book.

Anti-trans activism has ensured that trans children are getting no appropriate therapy from gender clinics at all, unless they paid for it or were in the system very, very young.

You aren't trans, and have no idea how vulnerable minority people should treat dysphoria you haven't experienced .

Being trans is real. The need to come out is so overwhelming, it overrides all other considerations - such as how incredibly tough life will be, and the vastly increased likelihood of a violent attack.

Being out greatly eases dysphoria and is very healing.

Dysphoria is only eased by social transition, acceptance and whatever changes the person needs to make. These changes are usually considered over many, many years.

It has been argued by bigots forever that accepting a minority will impact and harm them. It isn't true.

Being polite and respectful to a tiny minority of people who are going through considerable shit and are being attacked is normal behaviour.

Claiming offence because someone exists and you don't like their new name (something remarried women suffered until relatively recently btw) just marks you out as narrow-minded.

It's in the same league as putting audible quotes around "husband" and "wife" when referring to gay people's spouses. Utterly pathetic.

All trans people are different. Some trans guys prefer to keep their breasts, some don't. Lots of trans people prefer not to have bottom surgery. All are unique and get to decide how they live.

If you can't see that the state justifying control over another person's body is a first step to banning abortion and all reproductive rights, then...why the hell not? It's beyond obvious.

Trans people are a very small minority whose existence does not affect yours in the slightest. If you don't like that people's genitals might not match their appearance, then that's your problem, not theirs. They're just thinking about what's for tea or how to solve a problem at work.

The idea you can talk someone out of being trans comes from conversion therapy, which has ruined so many LGBT lives. It is very hard living as an out trans person, and most would not do it unless it meant everything.

Find a new hobby please.

Yes sex is a biological fact but gender is a sociological fact that also has implications on the definition of woman. Again its upto cultural values how they structure their society based on these facts. The facts themselves don't decide the structure, values do.

Its all so sexist - that being a women is based on what someone does, or how they present.

If groups want to organise themselves around gender, at least have decency to use words not associated with sex. Women, girl, female are already taken and are used to safeguard women and children.

Men do not get to 'structure' their way into following girls into single spaces.

How can gender ever be a fact in the same way sex can? It can’t. Not everyone agrees what gender is or even that they have one. It’s something that has to be taken on faith, or not, as the case may be. You can’t make laws and regulations based on it.

Yes sex is a biological fact but gender is a sociological fact that also has implications on the definition of woman. Again its upto cultural values how they structure their society based on these facts. The facts themselves don't decide the structure, values do.

It is a fixed physical fact of the universe, and an objective truth, that humans can’t change sex and men can’t be women though.

UK laws aren't objective truths or dictation from god about who is & isn't a woman. They come into being from cultural influences which is the point being made here so you don't get to use them as if they are some sort of objective truth. They are simply interpretations based on cultural expectations.

Laws are human-made rules created by societies to maintain order, reflect values, and solve practical problems. They change across borders and eras, functioning as cultural and political agreements rather than fixed physical facts of the universe.

We're a UK based site. The law clearly states that men should not use women's spaces. Its not negotiated based on the men's idea of what makes them a women.

I'm quoting a fact that culture impacts laws not my preference. Point in fact, many many countries are trans inclusionary in women's public toilets.

Single sex spaces are a 'right' that is culturally determined via social negotiation not an automatic one like all other rights. Your subjective personal preferences don't necessarily entitle you to rights.

You might want to rephrase, that Tottenhamhotflushes

It sounded like you support men following girls into female spaces, if they can convince enough people!

That doesn't really answer my question though does it? Paying for one's sex organs to be removed is one thing. Re-fashioning one's body into a simulacrum of the opposite sex infringes on other people's personal values, which may include not wanting to be deceived about a person's sex, not appreciating the appropriation of 'womanface' (or 'manface'), not wanting to be expected to refer to this person using opposite sex pronouns and not wanting to find this person in their single-sex spaces and on their single-sex sports teams.

You are now pivoting to something completely different to the topic which was the claim that trans people would benefit from therapy which is what my claims about personal values was relevant to.

I never stated another's personal values should dictate yours, just the opposite.

In terms of 'deceiving', people use medical enhancements all the time to 'deceive' others about their 'natural' state of affairs. This is no different.

And just about everyone engages in 'man face' & 'woman face' by the overwhelming choices of gendered appearance…& probably including you.

That you feel you should be entitled to be discriminatory regarding social conventions of politeness doesn't entitle you to be free of the consequences. Bad manners aren't exactly rewarded by the prevailing culture & this is no different.

Single sex spaces are a 'right' that is culturally determined via social negotiation not an automatic one like all other rights. Your subjective personal preferences don't necessarily entitle you to rights.

If someone is unhappy with the size of their nose, surgery can make it smaller.

Everyone can agree that the end result is a smaller nose.

If a man is unhappy with his sex, he can have breast implants. But he is still a man, he is still male. We cannot agree he has changed sex.

If a man wants to have breasts, he can. But let's not pretend he's a woman and should be treated as such.