Transitioning or therapy as the treatment for gender dysphoria

So in Cornwall… girls don’t wear trousers?

A “nasty” girl presumably said to your daughter than “only boys wear trousers”????

The same girls are still the same at 14. Is that old enough to be or not be mean girls? Even the teachers have spoken to them about their behaviour. It doesn't change.

I know that, you know that, but it was said to my friend's daughter at junior school. She's now 14.

I’m sorry to hear that but also sorry you feel it necessary to call young girls nasty and mean. More negative stereotypes…

In which decade and country did you grow up? Girls have been wearing trousers for a long time without it being an issue.

Cornwall, normal community. Nasty girls said it to another girl. Mean girls use all weapons at their disposal. It happened and I don't care if you don't believe me.

Exactly

some posters just make shit up

Culture assigns gender by translating biological sex into social roles, rules, and expectations. Societies use birth markers, behaviour codes, rituals, and language to teach people how to act like a specific gender which is a separate issue to gender self identification.

Where are you based? Religious community? Never heard that nonsense in the UK in all my several decades.

Jesus. I think I’ll just leave that comment to stand

ETA stand without further comment I mean. Obviously I have no power over whether it stands or is deleted.

I simply meant it’s more powerful of an example of the lack of care for people suffering with gender dysphoria by itself. It doesn’t need further comment to point that out. It could be seen from space

Logic fail.
Detransitioners who permanently detransition do it for a reason..they are not trans so their 'dissatisfaction' doesn't count.

Only boys wear trousers? Oh come on… no girl or boy thinks this.

That can happen as adults, but I know of children at Junior school ( ages 7-11) who have been told by other children that only boys wear trousers and only girls do dancing. It sounds ridiculous, but these ideas persist amongst children. Is that bullying? Is it enough to make a child question their gender/sex?

You said originally "that a culture assigns to biological sex categories"

Now you are saying its up to an individual?

How can a culture assign these categories when either sex, of any or no gender perform the same behaviour? There's no pattern for sociologist to study.

Readers note

The claim was made up thread that satisfaction rates are extremely high for gender related surgery. The academic studies are incomplete in this area but for several reasons it is supposed that the regret rate is much higher than previously claimed. Reasons include

• the oft quoted 1% rate comes from a study that predates the explosion in youth referrals
• studies such as there are tend to be based on a self reported satisfaction from patients soon after surgery Ie no long term follow up undertaken
• a very high proportion of detransitioners do not report their detransition to the gender clinics that treated them

You can read more here https://genspect.substack.com/p/going-forward-and-turning-back-transition?r=1one23&utm_medium=ios

I believe therapy to start with. I work in FE and have worked with many students over the years with gender dysphoria. Some did transition but others started to and then changed their mind so therapy would definitely be best to start with to ensure they can have support to unravel why they feel like that. I have no issue with trans people but I am starting to feel that some (not all) trans people can be quite extreme in their view, insist they are a “biological woman” and seem quite entitled to how they should be accepted and what rights they should have (often ignoring the very real struggles of other minority groups).

Kudos to the OP. This is the first new to Mumsnet poster in a while who's arrived promoting the idea of men in women' spaces (er, well, some of them based on some undefinable notions) who's so far nor descended into the usual "sorry you're unable to understand /comprehend my intellectually superior word salad posts".

That's quite an achievement given the track record for new posters. 😁

And of course has enabled some genuinely powerful and intelligent responses.

And sociology wouldn't exist as a legitimate academic subject if it couldn't back up its claims with evidence of social behaviours

<cough, cough>

It's self identification. So its upto the individual beliefs & values on what a person associates more with.

You are going to have to give examples.

If a man performs these female roles, behaviours and expressions, does he still have the categorical associations with women if he doesn't identity as a women.

That is, if he is a nurse on leave to look after his own children and wears make up, is he a women by default?

Do women become category men, depending on their actions, even if they haven't no interest in being seen as men?

By whom?

Both categorical associations exist so if we are talking about self identification it depends on the individual which one they identify more with.

This is an area of discussion where words confuse and try to change perceptions and reality… we need to go back to the basics…

There is no such thing as transition

• a man can’t become a woman
• a woman can’t become a man
• you can butcher someone as much as you like, it changes nothing

There is no such thing as social transition

• a man wearing a skirt is still a man
• your hair cut or facial hair changes nothing
• your name / pronouns / language changes nothing
• calling it gender v. sex changes nothing

Therefore there is no such thing as trans.

• If you can not transition physically and you can not transition socially, you can not transition = you can not be trans

That is reality

• doesn’t matter what wording is used to try and confuse the situation
• it doesn’t matter what emotions are brought in to the conversation
• it doesn’t matter what stories are told about the time a bloke convinced people he was a woman
• it doesn’t matter how personalised it is made and how much we are told this applies to me so you can’t argue
• it doesn’t matter how much we are told that someone’s lived experience is different… not possible

reality is simple, clear, black and white… there is not such thing as transition, there is no such thing as trans…

so what is there…

the reality here is more complex, there are all sorts of things going on:

• genuine mental health issues
• reactions against peer pressure and expectations
• reactions because of peer pressure and expectations
• worries about puberty and change
• concerns about being a woman in a screwed up world
• sexual deviations
• lies
• Men who wish to have power over women
• other dodgy and evil intentions

all of those are genuine and possibly only touch the surface of the complexity of issues at play…

we need society to wake up and deal with these issues… but we don’t do so by believing that anyone can actually transition physically or socially…

so let’s strip it back to basics and truth - treat people who need that treatment with sensitivity and care, but stand strong against the deceptions that try to convince us that it is something it is not, especially when the consequences would be / are esp detrimental to such a large part of society.

Doesn't that depend on which categorical association is applied?

If you think about it in terms of categorical associations they are.