'Pregnant people'

“Doesn't alter that they will keep being born”

I’m not too sure about that 🤔. With more and more children likely to be infertile through damage caused by certain so-called ‘life saving’ drugs and the semen producing people dying out through the use of X-sex hormones and surgery, where will these babies come from?

I agree. Transwoman ought to mean a woman who is 'trans' i.e. thinks she is a man. I suspect that this confusion has led many people to say that 'of course transwomen should be in women's lavatories, prisons etc' because the respondent thinks it is women being talked about. I also suspect that the (very little) publicity that has revealed that 'transwomen' are actually men has gone a long way towards the withdrawal of support for them being in actual women's spaces.

They can no longer be called or described as ‘milk’.

Legally the word ‘milk’ is exclusively for the mammary secretions of animals. Milk, butter and cheese apply only to animal products.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed “Trans men use male pronouns and very often pass as cis men.”

Men (and women)) don’t “pass” as anything. They are just men and women.

I'm liking the laughable idea that Prostate Cancer UK are just as careful/inclusive with language. Sure, they offer support to transwomen and some NB people (I think we know which ones), as they should, but their little badge, the one you see on the lapel's of various football managers in particular is literally called 'Man Of Men'.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed “Doesn't alter that they will keep being born,”

Who carries them for 9 months in a uterus?
Who gives birth to them?

Yes, i thought it was transphobic to assume someone's gender, surely.

But perhaps the rules have changed. Its so difficult to keep up...

Trust is a really important thing in medical scenarios, as Transparently points out. When I see an NHS worker with a progress Pride lanyard my heart sinks, as to me this is a signal that they do not support single sex spaces / care.

I do not feel i can trust them and would not want to be intimately examine by them.

Transparently has provided an excellent example of why words and symbols matter and why women's experience matters. According to them, we should accept this verbal erasure because it makes some other people feel better, and if women feel bad that's just tough because it's 'inclusive'.

Some people are more equal than others, apparently.

I'm gonna explain this in really simple terms.

Trans men use male pronouns and very often pass as cis men. They don't think of themselves as cis guys - they are trans guys.

All their friends, decent family members and colleagues refer to them by their name and pronouns. Some won't even know they are trans.

They are happy in who they are and live perfectly normal, very full lives. Sometimes, they decide to have children.

And the NHS is fine with that. The biggest concern for HCPs is that trans guys trust them enough to access care, especially when they're pregnant. So they use inclusive language on healthcare messaging.

That's it. That's the whole thing.

Your inability to understand that most folk don't have an issue with trans people, and just want them to be okay, is your problem.

The term "milk" has been used in the English language to describe milk-like plant juices and extracts for about 800 years, dating back to around 1200 CE. Historically, humans have consumed plant-based "milks," such as coconut and soy, for thousands of years. 1, 2, 3]

Centuries of History
The practice of extracting liquids from plants and nuts is an ancient tradition that spans many cultures. 1, 2]

• Coconut Milk: Used in cooking and drinks for over 5,000 years, primarily in Southeast Asia and India.
• Soy Milk: Documented in China as far back as the first century, where it was consumed as a broth or used to make tofu.
• Almond Milk: First mentioned in writing in a 13th-century Baghdadi cookbook and was a popular dairy substitute in medieval Europe. 1, 2, 3, 4]

@TransParentlyAnnoyed “dropping sprogs.”

NO woman would ever say that!!

Presumably they could have been transmen, as "we can never tell".

Are you suggesting that a pregnant 15 year old would not realise that the phrase 'pregnant women' applied to her (because that's what were talking about, inclusive communication)?

I think that's quite the stretch. I have never seen the phrase 'pregnant girls' ever used outside of this thread.

As a pp said, this (non) problem can be worked around by using phrasing like 'if you are pregnant...'

How do you know they're "cis" men? Do you ask them? What if Dr Upton wanted to examine you, how would you know he's trans? He looks just like a somewhat-balding man with long hair.

Trans people exist, albeit in very small numbers. They need healthcare.

You can get as an angry as you want, deny what you want. Fair enough, your life. Doesn't alter that they will keep being born, getting jobs, and dropping sprogs.

People who belong to minorities deserve a health service which welcomes them. We fought for that.

Anyone can request a change of doctor or chaperone. It's in the Patients Charter.

I know this because I'm a survivor of childhood physical abuse who's had kids, so have often been examined by cis men.

I would personally prefer a trans woman to examine me over a cis guy, but as always would request someone else be present if one wasn't offered. I don't want any physical exam done without a witness.

Oh and using slurs to describe minorities isn't argument.

It used to be since the “dawn of time!” No one questioned it, it was fact!! But now…

But surely, if they are pregnant then that is irrefutable proof that they are women?

I wish we lived in a world where little girls didn't!

Trans people as you describe them clearly have disordered thinking, in fact I would go as far as to say phobias, about the words thst apply to human sex.

I get that it must be very distressing for them.

But trans men are women. Trans women are men.

The only way to make this fact untrue is to change what those words mean. But even then, the underlying reality they label remains the same.

That trans people have taken words that only ever had the simple, clear meaning of physical sex and applied their own personal, and quite frankly sexist, ideas about what type of minds align to those word is, frankly, their problem.

On an individual basis we should be treating them with compassion (well, some compassion - in the same way a dementia patient shouting racist beliefs gets some compassion because of their dementia distress) but we absolutely should not be allowing their sexist and disordered ideas about what type of personality aligns to the words Woman and Man to change what those words mean, any more than we would think it reasonable to support arachnophobes by eliminating spiders from existence.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Gynae care especially. If you aren't sure you can trust someone who will examine you so intimately, then you will be put off from attending

Do you include rape and SA survivors who are put off from attending potentially life-saving medical appointments for fear of being intimately examined by a trans identifying male in this?

A potentially 'pregnant person' over on Reddit.

If this girl suffered such crippling dysphoria that she had to pump her body full of hormones to cosplay maleness, how on earth can she contemplate being pregnant and giving birth? Doesn't get more female than that.

It's almost like it's a load of old bollocks.

This is it, exactly, in a nutshell. Very well put. Welcome to "inclusion."

@TransParentlyAnnoyed “Trans men aren't women”

Do they have a prostate? Only men have prostates.

Do they have the ability to become pregnant and give birth? Only women can do this.

No men call themselves a trans man. They are just men!

NO women call themselves a trans woman. We are just women!

It doesn't need to be inclusive. It's a given that pregnant people are biologically female. Why not just say that.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed Inclusive language is also critical for trans women. There is so much hostility to them, and they suffer medical misogyny as well - can you imagine how difficult it must be for them to trust doctors with prostate care?

Trans women are men if they need prostate care. NO women have a prostate!!