terrifying, dangerous, abusive "advice" on r/transgenderuk

If you think that a boy having a father who reacts badly to them playing with 'girls' toys is going to mean they develop a trans identity that lasts for thirty+ years, then there would be a LOT more trans women around.

Jackie Green's father's views were awful - almost certainly homophobic, yes, but also misogynistic. But they were also not entirely uncommon among fathers in particular until very recently. My father - raising kids in the 1980s - held those views, and he was not an outlier.

The idea that any of those people would have preferred a trans daughter to a gay son is nonsense. The myth of the liberal pro-trans homophobe is just a nonsense.

Well no. The graph I posted suggests it's not true. That if you go back to 1950 there were far fewer people who were left handed.

Of course you're right. Left handed people existed back then just as they do now, and in the same numbers. Just like gay people existed in the past just as they do now, and in broadly the same numbers.

Because visibility is not the same as existence.

The same is true of trans people.

I've caught up now, I was hoping to see a response to the articles linked to in my post, but you've only referred to
https://segm.org/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis-desistance-germany

You point out that this is based on 'nationwide billing data of the Associations of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians in Germany' - which I assume means many millions of people - and that it would not include people who did not engage with the German public health system.

What did you think of the other studies I linked to?

Surely the fact that they used different samples/methodologies, but came up with a similar finding - that children with gender incongruence are more like than not to reconcile to their biological reality with the passage of time, making medical intervention superfluous if not dangerous - the jury is still out on the safety of PBs, for instance.

How many different studies finding the same thing would be convincing, in your opinion?

???? What are you on about?????
I haven’t attempted to block anything or anyone.

The point about this “treatment” being unregulated anyway still stands.

What people in recorded (but not recent) history would you consider to be genuinely trans?

I'm not dismissing what you say, but think we need to be a bit cautious in this area, because most people from history are only known to us from records of their behaviour rather than clear records of how they thought of themselves. With women, particularly, one would need firm evidence that they saw themself as a man, rather than merely tried to convince others that they were one, because being taken for a man has conferred social advantages in most societies.

Castration is another area for caution because often it was something done to, rather than for, the individual concerned.

I strongly disagree. Being "trans" has to be a modern invention because while it's never been possible to change sex in modern times with surgery & drugs it is now possible to become a pastiche of the opposite sex. The retconning of historic cross-dressers like Joan of Arc as being "trans" is ludicrous.

You're minimising what happened. From the earlier link to SG's now withdrawn TED talk, the transcript provided includes this telling passage:

Well, Jack was my first child. I thought I knew what to expect but really I started to notice that as soon as he got mobile and could express himself he was gravitated towards things that you would see as stereotypically female. I wasn't bothered [that didn't you know] that didn't faze me at all, as far as I was concerned children should be allowed to play with whatever they want to play with even if it doesn't fit the norm. And at the childminders when I went back to work Jack's favourite outfits [with A22 in] the Snow White costume and again that was fine but not for dad. So Jackie's dad struggled and he blamed me. His thoughts were that because I allowed the Polly Pocket and the My Little Pony that I was facilitating and encouraging. And I disagreed and it caused tensions would I had come to the conclusion with over sort of the sort of years up until she was about two was that I had a very sensitive quite effeminate little boy who was probably gay but Jack’s dad did not approve of our childs effeminate behaviour and it created such tensions that we ended up in couples counselling. We went to couples counselling and what they said to us as parents was that we had to agree. No matter what it was that we agreed upon, we had to agree. At that point Tim decided that I must agree with him apparently, and then all the girl toys oh girly toys and such were taken away and put away and Jack was made aware that this was not appropriate. And suddenly our confident happy little boy became quite quiet, withdrawn, very clingy and tearful.

So there was a crisis when the toys were taken away, but that came after what sounds like several years when the poor kid's father would have been tutting and very obviously disapproving of all his child's interests and preferences. How is a tiny child supposed to make sense of this? Repeatedly hearing 'He's a boy, why's he playing with girls' toys?' 'This isn't on, he's not a girl, he should be outside playing football with the other lads ...' It doesn't take a great amount of imagination to see that this sensitive little boy might think 'I need to be a girl, then Dad won't always be angry with me and I can carry on dressing up and playing with my dolls.' What was badly needed in that family was somebody to tackle the father's Neanderthal views about what little boys should be like, not medication to change the child's body irretrievably.

You appear to be mixing 'desist' with 'detransition', though you seem to have corrected that in a later post.

I'm catching up with this thread so I'll see later how you have responded to the idea that a child with gender incongruence [as I believe the accepted term is] will reconcile with their biological reality with the passage of time, making any medical intervention superfluous, to say the least.

He only said he was a girl TO GET HIS TOYS BACK.

His dad did not want an effeminite son.

There is nothing more homophobic than cutting your son's dick off because he might fancy boys.

Forcing him then to be penetrated 'as a girl'.

It is totally sick and only a monster would do that to their child.

I cannot believe a mother would condone removing her son’s genitalia. Taking kids overseas for FGM surgery is illegal. This ‘mother’ ought to be locked up forever. Permanently physically damaging her child. WTF???

There have been trans people since the beginning of recorded history. People can be trans without changing sex.

The first recorded trans surgery was done over 100 years ago, and that's only if you don't count older cultures which removed the genitals young men, many of whom would probably have identified as trans in a different culture.

This isn't anything new. Only the battle to be recognised as having changed sex and take women's rights is new.

💯🎯

I assume the salivating gotcha waiting around the corner is that once upon a time, people thought being left handed had to be "cured" by forcing people to be right handed. The daft TRAs think that's the same as saying trans identifying children need to be "cured" by supporting them accepting themselves so they do not believe themselves to be mentally the opposite sex any more.

The obvious flaw they are missing in this of course is that the "cure" GC Feminists want for trans children is that they become happy in their natural bodies, understand that any personality is ok for the sex of the body and that who they are was they were never wrong or needing to be fixed in the first place.

Whereas the TRA's "acceptance" of trans childen requires telling them yes, they are broken and wrong for their bodies so unless their bodies are medically altered they will be be miserable and rejected all their lives.

Because you know, the TRAs are the nice, tolerant #BeKind ones 🙄

I would call them teenagers with body dysmorphia not "trans teenagers". You cannot change sex so the treatment for body dysmorphia can never be changing sex. Until 50-60 years ago there were no transexuals. Until 15-20 years ago there were no "trans kids".

Oh I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring up conversation therapy.

You are too blinded by your ideology and too ignorant of child development to understand how those homophobic parents created that child.

Jackie Greene has been on female sex hormones since they were 16 or earlier. How on earth do you or they know what their feelings would be now if they were being given male hormones instead of female ones?

There are women who take male hormones to feel more like men. It is no stretch of the imagination to believe that a male could feel more male if they were given male sex hormones.

Your "persistence" argument is built on a bed of sand.

Well you might want to take that up with the Tavistock who claimed they were transing away the gay. Oh no wait, you can't, the clinic was shut down.

An attitude to effeminacy that results in quite literally removing all the bloody toys of a small child, is indicative of a deep seated, insidious and damaging mindset around homosexuality.

Jackie Green was crying on the phone begging his grandma not to tell his parents that he would like a doll for Christmas.

Damage done. I'm not surprised you can't see it. Empathy isn't strong in transactivists.

Jackie greens maturity was quite literally stopped as a child. And his genitals removed as a teenager.

He has no hope of 'not persisting'.

edited to add that Susie Green had absolutely no qualms, whatsoever, about broadcasting this entire issue to the world. Totally unaware of how it would appear to anybody else.

Until the penny dropped - and the video deleted.

Is left handedness also a modern invention?

Of course not. About 10% of the population are left-handed & this is true throughout history. For example it's well known that Leonardo de Vinci was left-handed. In any case those who are left-handed don't require any surgery or cross-sex hormones so I am not sure why it's relevant to this discussion.

Has anyone explained yet why this mental belief one should have been the opposite sex is somehow magically the same as actually being the opposite sex?

No, didn't think so.

There certainly were teenagers with body dysmorphia who did not grow out of that dysmorphia after puberty.

I would personally call those genuinely trans teenagers but you can't tell which are which until after puberty and experiencing adult life.

Of course I have a good idea, because there is research that talks about the indicators for desistence and persistence, and Jackie Green met most of the criteria for factors linked to persistence.

This is classic conversion therapy mindset. A thirty-something year old person is assumed to not know their gender identity or how they want to live their life. If only you could have drummed it out of them early enough they might have lived 'happily' as a cisgender person. But that is rubbish. Jackie Green continues to be a trans person. This is an example of someone for whom the research was spot on - persistent GD is more likely to persist permanently, as it has for her.

No "trans people" have not always been around. So called "trans people" are a modern invention created by cross-sex hormones, genital surgery & boob jobs. These medical interventions have only been available in recent decades.

Is left handedness also a modern invention?

You have absolutely no idea how long that trans identity would have persisted if that child had not had puberty blockers at 12, their genitals removed at 16 and cross sex hormones ever since.

If that person were given the appropriate male hormones now instead of female ones, they might well decide they were a man after all. Too late when your penis is gone, of course.

Until adults started giving PBs & cross-sex hormones to children there were no "trans kids". Where were all the "trans kids" a hundred years ago? There weren't any "trans kids" sixty years ago when I was a teenager. These "trans kids" are a modern invention.

It was never zero. Trans people have always been around and people did and still do go through puberty and come out the other side wishing they could change their sex.