Complaint in to Lewisham re EHRC

For those of you who are considering submitting an FOI, the Information Commissioner’s Office has some helpful guidance on what makes for a valid and effective one: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/official-information/preparing-and-submitting-your-information-request/

The broad steer is that FOIs should be clear, concise and ask for recorded information. So in this case, where the council Leaders have only raised a motion at this stage/ signalled their intention to ignore the EHRC guidance, the FOI might be a way of trying to force them to acknowledge that they’ve done this without the appropriate legal advice, consideration of the cost of this action or of how they could implement it legally. Anything broader would probably need to go into a letter or maybe a complaint (though the latter would need to be carefully crafted with reference to what policy or legislation hasn’t been followed I think).

Yes, definitely! I've been thinking about all of this in relation to children because I suspect those at Lewisham council who are coming out with their trite trendy nonsensical soundbites have stopped being able to hear the word woman. When we say women it just slides by their prefrontal cortex and goes straight to the amygdala. Whatever picture they have there: the karen of popular culture, a trad-wife influencer from Instragram or a conservative christian. Whatever the picture is they can't hear the word woman without associations.

So I was hoping that with children they might be able to stick around in the prefrontal cortex and think a little bit. About how many different people this is impacting. Definitely half the population of Lewisham but also their children.

I am going to try to talk to someone every time I am walking the dog and ask them what they think.

@13RidgmontRoad I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you can use https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ to submit FOI requests, and it keeps track of whether they've had a response and what it was. You can also search FOIs that other people have submitted

I would support this is in any way necessary- I am in the borough. Lewisham is obviously extremely lefty and awful politically

I'm not saying that this is what should happen - just that this is the practical reality if anyone can use the facility and nobody can be asked to leave (regardless of the sign on the door).

If that is what the council decides to do (as detailed in Ridgmont's letter) it is likely that the council is discriminating against groups who, for a variety of reasons, require single sex spaces in some circumstances.

I suspect the council is hoping to get away with the worst of all possible solutions - making all services mixed sex, but without any impact assessment or even acknowledgment that the facilities are mixed sex.

I agree that a practical position could be to always have mixed sex facilities but in many circumstances that practical position would be a diminishment of child safeguarding. Particularly if you think that encouraging independence in children is positive.

Anyway, how do I explain to the children that if there is a man in the facilities this may or may not be cause for alarm and even though he looks like a man he might be a woman?

The practical position would be that the facility is mixed sex so you could have no expectation that there wouldn't be a man present in any facility and no reason to ask him to leave.

Very good letter.

I liked the way it focused on their policies and the practicalities of what they propose.

I don't know if this would be valid but would it be possible to get an FOI or send some other kind of question to Lewisham to get a breakdown of exactly what it means to 'show solidarity with Trans and Intersex LGBTQI + community?'

Because many of the gender critical women are lesbians for example. And the LGB Alliance, are they being supported? What about the detransitioners? Does Lewisham Council, for example, think it is a mistake that puberty blockers are now not available on the NHS? What about all the gender nonconforming kids who are gay or gender nonconforming but not trans? What about material in schools? Do they think all children should be told they can choose to be a boy or girl? Do they think it is possible to change your sex?

It is a complicated issue and since it is so central to the Green Party's identity they must know exactly what they mean when express their solidarity. What exactly? Can they specify?

Sorry I'm not sure how to use all the features as am new to MumsNet but 13RidgmontRoad you talked about setting up a group for action on this topic. Is that possible?
I also realised that a good additional question would be, as suggested by Public SectorHag:

Have you taken legal advice on the implications of your motion on Child Safeguarding and if so, what advice did you receive and from whom?

Perhaps someone else could send that as an FOI?

That’s great, I bet they try to fob you off. But then you can escalate it.

Question numbers should say 1-4 obviously!

Dear Mayor Shivastava,

I would like to submit a Freedom Of Information request regarding the recent statement published by Lewisham Council concerning the EHRC's updated Equality Act 2010 Code of Practice (CoP).

I would like to highlight the Government’s Must Know for Child Safeguarding that states that councillors should ensure their council is meeting these duties by considering Child Safety in all Services and Decisions.

Taken from the Local Government Association website:

Council services
Do staff have effective systems and technology to enable them to keep children safe?
Is council funding on child safeguarding spent effectively? Is it sufficient? How do you know?
Is there effective scrutiny of child safeguarding issues in your area?
How do you know whether your services keep children safe?
Are there any groups of children who are less safe than others in your area? Consider for example different characteristics and particular vulnerabilities.
Do all services within your council understand their role in child safeguarding?
Has your council recently invited the LGA to carry out a child safeguarding peer review?

These are my FOI Questions:

1. What actions have Lewisham Council taken as part of their internal review to make sure that Children's Safeguarding is not diminished by the Council's public statement that no trans person be excluded from public spaces? These spaces will include the spaces which are the accepted safe spaces for children.

1. What actions have you taken to ensure that, for example, men who like to 'flash' don't take advantage of the public statement of the council? Because it will be hard to challenge men being in women's spaces.

1. What efforts have you gone to in this review to ensure that by your actions you have not, in trying to protect one vulnerable group, made another (children) less safe in the Borough of Lewisham?

1. Lewisham Council says, 'in no uncertain terms: Trans women are women' but what is your advice to parents on how to explain this to children? How do you advise parents to explain to their children that the person who looks like a man may or may not be able to use the women's toilets or changing rooms? These spaces are also the space for children under 8 who are sometimes unsupervised.

First link is Child Safeguarding Responsibilities of Councils. Second link is the Pornography Report from the Children's Commissioner. Women and children have always been subject to molestation and abuse but things have been made worse by the dominance of the pornography industry in our culture. In this increasingly tricky national environment for Lewisham Council to be cavalier about their safeguarding responsibilities to children and recklessly change established social norms that give women, girls and children a degree of security, driven by their blind ideology is pretty upsetting. Where is the sanctuary for these groups in the 'Borough of Sanctuary'?

https://www.local.gov.uk/publications/must-know-safeguarding-children

www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/resource/sex-is-kind-of-broken-now-children-and-pornography/

Well done op, let us know what they respond with

I'm afraid I've never submitted an FOI before, but hopefully someone else here has!

I think your questions are good, and the impact on safeguarding children should focus minds should!)

So perhaps some questions for an FOI request could be something along the lines of:

What actions have Lewisham Council taken as part of their internal review to make sure that Children's Safeguarding is not diminished by the Council's public statement that no trans person be excluded from public spaces? These spaces will include the spaces which are the accepted safe space for children.

What actions have you taken to ensure that, for example, men who like to 'flash' don't take advantage of the public statement of the council because it will be hard to challenge men being in women's spaces?

What efforts have you gone to in this review to ensure that by your actions you have not, in trying to protect one vulnerable group, made another (children) less safe in the Borough of Lewisham?

Lewisham Council say in no uncertain terms: Trans women are women but what is your advice to parents on how to explain this to children? Explain that the person who looks like a man may or may not be able to use the women's toilets or changing rooms (which is also the space for children under 8 who are sometimes unsupervised)?

I don't know what the good wording would be but something along those lines... Does anyone have any advice?

I have really no knowledge of what happens in Ireland. We live in a country town and have only been there for a couple of years. However, I have been made aware of all of this recently because I have been trying to do some work raising awareness about children seeing pornography and the many harms of that and so have looked at the Sex Ed programme for secondary which has a big chunk of gender ideology in it. The crazy thing is that all the people who 'get it' about the harms of porn and are the same organisations and people who are sold on Gender Ideology so it's all very confusing. Parents are rightly concerned about their children taking part in some of these classes and that gets in the way of things that really should be covered and are fact-based, evidence-based. This summer I have read Helen Joyce's book on Trans and also listened to the podcast series 'Julie in Genderland' and listened to Stella O'Malley. The only good discussion I've heard with anyone from the other side of the argument is a conversation between Peter Tatchell and Andrew Gold on his 'Heretics' podcast. So I'm trying to get myself well-informed but all I know so far about Self ID is that it is very easy to do and was sort of sneaked in without public debate. I am also Australian and in Australia there has been this ruling recently of 'Giggle vs Tickle' which is mad stuff. Despite what's being stated in Lewisham you are much better off in the UK on this issue than many other places. Thanks to the hard work of campaigners. I'm very grateful to them.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/select_authority

What do they know is a good place to start.

Gosh that's much better than my inquiry of my council (one of the other renegades) asking if they could let me know which other laws I can safely disregard. I might save yours for the follow up 😀

What happens in Ireland where self ID is the law?

I think this is a good point and I don’t know the answer. Nor I suspect do the virtue signallers and activists at Lewisham council.

I feel I wasn't very clear in my point: Is there an aspect of this related to children that should be highlighted? If men who identify as women are able to use women only facilities and this is supposed to be normalised how do you explain to children what might or might not be concerning? If it is not okay to say to children under the age of eight (which will include both boys and girls) that they shouldn't pay attention to a man in a woman's space is this not opening up an opportunity for those who would like to take advantage of that situation? How can you give children clear advice that would not be seen as prejudicial? What is the Council's advice to parents? I have lived in Lewisham most of my life and visit regularly but we live in Ireland now so I'm not a resident. In Ireland we have Gender Self ID and Gender Ideology and Trans Inclusivity are very embedded.
Anyway, I don't know about Safeguarding laws but it seems to me that there is a problem with explaining things to children whilst keeping them safe. You can't just say 'Transwomen are Women' to a five year old.