I think @Stonehenger should get FWRs derailer of the month award.
I'm currently up to 8 pages on whether "get your knickers in a twist" is a misogynistic phrase or not (and I'm still several pages behind the thread.
Bravo! That's some impressive derailing there.

🏆

Have you missed all the posts on this thread about the concept of trans misogyny? It describes how misogyny and transphobia intersect in the treatment of trans women specifically.

Its not so long ago that TiM was banned on here.

Well I’d also distinguish between cis men and trans men! You don’t have to use the terminology; I’m just saying it does exist, and it solves the problem someone raised.

OMG. 'Twas I who asked, long, long ago (yesterday) what terrible things JKR was thought to have done. I didn't expect it to spark a million page discussion about upskirting and knickers being got in a twist.

Sorry 😬

I use trans-identifying man, but my preferred option: actual woman and pretend woman, or even better: woman and man

You could use cis woman in the cases where it’s important to distinguish between a cis woman and a trans woman (eg medical settings). The rest of the time, I think woman is fine for us all. You are welcome to disagree, but there IS a usable option.

I'm reminded of a student political activist who got to speak to a parliamentary committee about how trans he was. He described himself as a 'queer trans disabled lesbian woman'.

Im not sure if its clear what any of the words mean in that description.

Transwoman or trans identifying man.

Trans woman implies they are a subset of women. They are not.

If the word 'woman' becomes unstable, so do the adjectives.

What is a tall woman or a short man if anyone can be a woman or a man?

Transwoman or trans identifying man.

Trans woman implies they are a subset of women. They are not.

From George Eliot to Andy Capp:

https://wordhistories.net/2018/09/30/knickers-twist/

A while back I wrote a very considered and nuanced post about how misogyny can manifest itself in discrimination and abuse of men as well, not because these men are in any way women but because the patriarchal devaluing of/disgust towards the female creates a cultural devaluing of/disgust towards men exhibiting socially female-coded aspects.

The illustration I used was the abuse white musicians and white people in mixed race couples got from racists in the 1960s in the US. They were not themselves Black but the racist devaluing of anything Black was why they were abused.

Others disagreed.

This is the type of nuanced, difficult and insightful analysis around the concept of male bodies and feminine behavous within patriarchy that we could be discussing/having a good productive feminist argument about.

But we can't do that while these neo-sexist Genderists are insisting the fundamental insight, the patriarchal rejection of the female body, isn't a thing we can recognise because if TW actually are women as well, anything to do with sex can't be significant to womanhood or misogyny.

You could use cis woman in the cases where it’s important to distinguish between a cis woman and a trans woman (eg medical settings). The rest of the time, I think woman is fine for us all. You are welcome to disagree, but there IS a usable option.

I just keep getting this in my head whenever I come back to this thread.

The examples given are mostly men using the phrase "Don't get your knickers in a twist" to other men. The first use is in a 1971 Andy Capp cartoon with Andy telling the male rent collector not to get his knickers in a twist. This is certainly my experience of the phrase that it's neither gendered nor misogynistic.

Pedantry won't save you from the fact that prefixes like 'trans' 'cis' 'black' 'white' exist when there is a need to differentiate between types of women . Given trans women are rarely a part of most peoples lives (except for those who incessantly obsess about them) its not exactly coming up in conversation.

Pedantry won't save you from the fact that prefixes like 'trans' 'cis' 'black' 'white' exist when there is a need to differentiate between types of women . Given trans women are rarely a part of most peoples lives (except for those who incessantly obsess about them) its not exactly coming up in conversation.

Oh, I can just imagine the news headlines "Adult human female assaulted/raped/murdered". Really trips off the tongue doesn't it?

Pedantry won't save you from the fact that prefixes like 'trans' 'cis' 'black' 'white' exist when there is a need to differentiate between types of women . Given trans women are rarely a part of most peoples lives (except for those who incessantly obsess about them) its not exactly coming up in conversation.

Or we could say “ women “ and “trans women” - wouldn’t that save an awful lot of time and confusion? We all know what a trans women is don’t we, particularly in healthcare ( unless you are Dr Upton of course)

You could use cis woman in the cases where it’s important to distinguish between a cis woman and a trans woman (eg medical settings). The rest of the time, I think woman is fine for us all. You are welcome to disagree, but there IS a usable option.