Civil servants oppose plans to end trans reassignment leave policy

They are getting taught how to use their vocal folds, yes? The job title of the teacher doesn't matter so much.

Sam will get absence warnings and Erica won't. This is just not on.

Disdain for a fictional trans-identifying person. Fictional, used to illustrate an example of a policy being unfair. I absolutely am going to be disdainful about that. If I have to take singing lessons outside of work hours, so trans-identifying people can take voice lessons outside of working hours. Neither of us is disabled without them, whereas Sam is disabled by his stroke robbing him of his voice.

Feel like I read there is research showing a difference in the brain patterns of men and women (makes sense that this would be a biological issue that could potentially be cured with an operation or medication).

I do understand your view about how you're treated since birth but I feel it's always a combination of nature and nurture. So, how you're treated could impact your taste in romantic partners, but whether you start by liking men or women (or whatever) is nature.

I don't think I felt like a girl only because I had a vagina, because I didn't really even know I had one (or didn't think about it) until sex education at the end of primary school, and our teacher recommended looking at ourselves with a mirror down there. You don't think about what boys have, do you, until you get older and go through puberty and learn things.

Until I see science indicating otherwise, and frankly, I don't care if it's biological or mental/thoughts only: if you 'feel' like (or believe) you are one gender: it's cruel to force someone to live their life as the other. Try it yourself. And I don't know if curing it ('changing' gender in their minds) is less horrific than changing their bodies. Lesser of two.

Or what is the solution to ease their suffering? Talking about it in therapy won't work.

The problem is it was 13 weeks of extra paid leave that no other employee was entitled to. Trans identifying people should have the same sickness and sick pay leave as everyone else and not given extra for their chosen cosmetic surgery.
If women have to use a combination of paid and unpaid sick leave/holiday allowance and/or an unpaid sabbatical to have a boob job so should every single man who wants one otherwise thats sex discrimination.
Now if they want to keep the policy they can but they must open it up to all employees who want any cosmetic surgery whether thats a nose job, face-lift, tummy-tuck or even dental implants. However I suspect that the cost of doing so is prohibitive so they are rightly scrapping the illegal policy.
Why do you think that trans people should have rights that nobody else have when it comes to sick pay?

I've no idea tbh as I've never needed to ask, but I would assume elective is something that hasn't caused you to take sick leave previously eg cosmetic surgery etc.

If Sam ‘doesn’t have a voice’ then there’s a strong chance Sam is on long term sick leave. Stroke survivors don’t have ‘voice coaching’, they have speech therapy. Your comparison is meaningless, you created it so you could express your disdain for a trans person. That’s fine, your opinion, but it says nothing to the policy.

Feel like I read there is research showing a difference in the brain patterns of men and women (makes sense that this would be a biological issue that could potentially be cured with an operation or medication).

I do understand your view about how you're treated since birth but I feel it's always a combination of nature and nurture. So, how you're treated could impact your taste in romantic partners, but whether you start by liking men or women (or whatever) is nature.

I don't think I felt like a girl only because I had a vagina, because I didn't really even know I had one (or didn't think about it) until sex education at the end of primary school, and our teacher recommended looking at ourselves with a mirror down there. You don't think about what boys have, do you, until you get older and go through puberty and learn things.

Until I see science indicating otherwise, and frankly, I don't care if it's biological or mental/thoughts only: if you 'feel' like (or believe) you are one gender: it's cruel to force someone to live their life as the other. Try it yourself. And I don't know if curing it ('changing' gender in their minds) is less horrific than changing their bodies. Lesser of two.

Or what is the solution to ease their suffering? Talking about it in therapy won't work.

In my example, Sam doesn't have a choice about voice coaching. He had a stroke and lost his voice. Erica's voice works, but Erica doesn't like having a tenor pitch and wants to make his voice sound higher to resemble that of a woman.

I'm absolutely going to judge Erica as far less in need of paid time off.

You didn't read my post, did you?

The Civil Service has policies around special leave for a range of reasons. One of those is to do with health and disability. Many others are not.

Feel like I read there is research showing a difference in the brain patterns of men and women (makes sense that this would be a biological issue that could potentially be cured with an operation or medication).

I do understand your view about how you're treated since birth but I feel it's always a combination of nature and nurture. So, how you're treated could impact your taste in romantic partners, but whether you start by liking men or women (or whatever) is nature.

I don't think I felt like a girl only because I had a vagina, because I didn't really even know I had one (or didn't think about it) until sex education at the end of primary school, and our teacher recommended looking at ourselves with a mirror down there. You don't think about what boys have, do you, until you get older and go through puberty and learn things.

Until I see science indicating otherwise, and frankly, I don't care if it's biological or mental/thoughts only: if you 'feel' like (or believe) you are one gender: it's cruel to force someone to live their life as the other. Try it yourself. And I don't know if curing it ('changing' gender in their minds) is less horrific than changing their bodies. Lesser of two.

Or what is the solution to ease their suffering? Talking about it in therapy won't work.

Feel like I read there is research showing a difference in the brain patterns of men and women (makes sense that this would be a biological issue that could potentially be cured with an operation or medication).

I do understand your view about how you're treated since birth but I feel it's always a combination of nature and nurture. So, how you're treated could impact your taste in romantic partners, but whether you start by liking men or women (or whatever) is nature.

I don't think I felt like a girl only because I had a vagina, because I didn't really even know I had one (or didn't think about it) until sex education at the end of primary school, and our teacher recommended looking at ourselves with a mirror down there. You don't think about what boys have, do you, until you get older and go through puberty and learn things.

Until I see science indicating otherwise, and frankly, I don't care if it's biological or mental/thoughts only: if you 'feel' like (or believe) you are one gender: it's cruel to force someone to live their life as the other. Try it yourself. And I don't know if curing it ('changing' gender in their minds) is less horrific than changing their bodies. Lesser of two.

Or what is the solution to ease their suffering? Talking about it in therapy won't work.

No, they’re not, because my response was to you stating you don’t need special time off when well. In fact many people do and an employer can decide what comes under that policy.

Anyone can choose what to do with their body and will have to operate within the policies that exist. Your attempts to demean ‘Erica’s’ choices as less valid than ‘Sam’s’ undermines any idea of fairness. A policy isn’t about individuals, it’s not about whether you agree with what someone’s doing or your assessment of whether they need it or not. It’s disappointing - though inevitable - that people are using this as an opportunity to denigrate trans people rather than actually advocate for clear and fair policies for everyone.

Feel like I read there is research showing a difference in the brain patterns of men and women (makes sense that this would be a biological issue that could potentially be cured with an operation or medication).

I do understand your view about how you're treated since birth but I feel it's always a combination of nature and nurture. So, how you're treated could impact your taste in romantic partners, but whether you start by liking men or women (or whatever) is nature.

I don't think I felt like a girl only because I had a vagina, because I didn't really even know I had one (or didn't think about it) until sex education at the end of primary school, and our teacher recommended looking at ourselves with a mirror down there. You don't think about what boys have, do you, until you get older and go through puberty and learn things.

Until I see science indicating otherwise, and frankly, I don't care if it's biological or mental/thoughts only: if you 'feel' like (or believe) you are one gender: it's cruel to force someone to live their life as the other. Try it yourself. And I don't know if curing it ('changing' gender in their minds) is less horrific than changing their bodies. Lesser of two.

Or what is the solution to ease their suffering? Talking about it in therapy won't work.

If gender reasssignment isn't a medical or health issue, it doesn't need any special paid time off at all, same as I don't need special paid time off when I'm well.

If it isn't a disability but is a health issue, it should be treated like all other non-disability health issues under the same sickness policy.

I think one issue is that employees (and even managers) are often unaware of special leave policies, so more work needs to be done on bringing them to the attention of everyone in a workplace or organisation.

It is the sheer scale of the leave for 'gender transition' that boggles my mind. Up to a quarter of a year, every year. In one of the examples I found, it is not for when a person is unfit for work following an operation or treatment (which comes out of sickness leave) but for gender reassignment appointments and treatments themselves which, as PP have said, may well include laser hair removal, make up lessons, personal stylist appointments, voice training and tattoos.
Not to re-hash a recent thread, but gender dysphoria that necessitates treatment that the tax-payer pays for either through the NHS and/or paid special leave should be classified as an medical/health issue or disability, not just the lifestyle choice that many TRAs present it as.

“Or fight tooth and nail because you "know" you're female.”

The issue is, that no male can ‘know’ what they are perceiving as themself being female. It is not an accurate statement. And vice versa. There is no possible way for them to have an accurate reference point.

Not one aspect of that person’s life has been experienced as the opposite sex, despite their self description that it has been.

It is all based on a personal subjective conceptualisation of how people of the opposite sex experience life and how they navigate the world with the sexed body they have.

Your attempts to demean ‘Erica’s’ choices as less valid than ‘Sam’s’ undermines any idea of fairness.

Sam doesn't have a fucking choice. He's had a stroke. Give me strength.

None of your examples are related to surgery and medical treatments. Having one leave policy for most people's, including disabled people's, medical stuff and another far more lenient policy for trans-identifying people's medical stuff is grossly unfair. As a PP said, HR staff must feel awful having to send sickness absence warnings to staff with cancer, and it will seem even crueler to do this when Erica at the next desk is getting paid time off with no warnings for his boob job and voice training.

Why should Erica, whose voice works perfectly already, get a more generous deal than Sam, whose stroke paralysed his vocal folds and is having to learn to speak all over again?

Because gender reassignment isn't a disability and isn't always a medical or health issue.

Probably the same reason there are separate policies for special leave for carers, or for voluntary work, or jury service.

You may well need, and be entitled to, special paid leave when you’re well - bereavement or parental leave, for jury or other civic service including being a trustee or lay member of a committee etc. Most employers have policies on this and the CS certainly do.

Why is everyone saying that trans people should 'get what everyone else gets'?

The CS also has a policy of paid special leave related to health and disability needs. So if someone needs time off to deal with follow ups after surgery or for chronic health conditions, that is also permissible without using either sick leave or annual leave.

It is discretionary and has to be agreed with a line manager, as is the gender reassignment paid special leave.