Page 5 | If the majority of women voted in favour of self ID?

Emilesgran · Yesterday 15:15

MaIeficent · Yesterday 00:45

What would you do?

Completely hypothetical question. I'm not so interested in hearing about the stats/reality or that 'it would never happen'. Just hypothetically what people's stance would be if it did.

I'm conflicted as I don't think I could ever be in favour but I simultaneously support the right of women to make their own choices even if I disagree with them.

Would you defer to them in recognition that this is the decision that makes women as a whole happiest or would you soldier on and try and impose the wishes of a minority group onto a majority of dissenting women?

There would have to be an opportunity for honest and frank debate first, to ensure that women all knew the potential consequences. If it happened now, too many women just haven’t been given a chance to do that, such is the pressure on them still to keep quiet and kind.

IF that happened, and all sides are able to make their case, then it would be like the abortion debate in Ireland: those who lost are perfectly free to continue to campaign but the reality is that when the debates have been had, the decision is seen as fair.

The original abortion debate in the 80s was heavily directed in favour of the catholic church’s stance, so not honest at all. When there was a proper debate, the result was very different. And it’s noticeable that Self ID in Ireland was passed without any similar discussion - as Denton’s handbook explained.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:21

MaIeficent · Yesterday 01:54

Fair point. But if I'm not mistaken, self ID in these countries means men using women's spaces and women seem to be mostly in favour.

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There are only two options: mixed sex or uni sex.

If men and women in some societies are happy for all facilities to be mixed sex, then they should certainly go for it.

But even if that were the case women and men will still always rely on different rights, and if we can't recognise the distinct material differences that lead to sex inequality, and thus ensure provision of the resources that mitigate this, we might as well all move to Afghanistan.

It's mystifying that this still needs to be explained.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:23

spannasaurus · Yesterday 12:05

My view on whether men should be allowed to use female SSS on the basis of self ID is unaffected by what other people's opinions are. I believe it is wrong regardless of whether any one else agrees with me.

My view on whether men should be allowed to use female SSS is governed by the rules of the material universe, which dictate that it is not possible.

quixote9 · Yesterday 15:32

The only reason there's an issue in OP's question is the confusion over rights and privileges.

Everyone has the same rights. That's what rights are. Otherwise they're privileges.

So all the usual civil rights, which everyone has without affecting the same rights for anyone else, apply to trans people. Job discrimination (except where sex is actually relevant to the job), housing discrimination, etc etc are illegal. Dress how you like (again, within the limits of job requirements). Marry whom you like.

But taking over single sex spaces is NOT in that class. If everybody did it, it wouldn't work for anybody. That's a privilege, not a right. That's why it does not work when applied universally. That's why women have to be told to shut up and be kind, because it's their rights being trampled.

Self-ID? Fine when it's applied to purely personal business. Same way as religious freedom is fine in that case.

Not fine when it's used to tell other people they can't have the same right to self-define.

It's not a question of what the majority thinks any more than any other right is.

NoWordForFluffy · Yesterday 15:37

PoisonCrystal · Yesterday 08:00

What? You mean imagine there was a Brexit-like referendum and people voted in favour of removing all single-sex spaces, OP? Seriously? I’d hope that I would be channelling my inner Elizabeth Fry.

Edited

If you have a binding referendum, it would be dealt with better than Brexit, which had no
minimum turnout / minimum vote split. (Plus, the Brexit referendum would've had its result voided if it had been binding, due to illegality.)

There is no way, if explained correctly, that the majority of women would vote for self ID, I am very confident about that.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:40

NoWordForFluffy · Yesterday 15:37

If you have a binding referendum, it would be dealt with better than Brexit, which had no
minimum turnout / minimum vote split. (Plus, the Brexit referendum would've had its result voided if it had been binding, due to illegality.)

There is no way, if explained correctly, that the majority of women would vote for self ID, I am very confident about that.

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There is no way, if explained correctly, that the majority of women would vote for self ID, I am very confident about that.

If people were happy for all spaces to be mixed sex there wouldn't have been an outcry over mixed sex hospital wards and we would have mixed sex prisons.

SodThisHeadache · Yesterday 15:51

Helleofabore · Yesterday 15:09

HEPI "A BREED APART? WHAT DO YOUNG UNDERGRADUATES THINK OF CONTROVERSIAL AND DIVISIVE ISSUES?"
https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/A-breed-apart-What-do-young-undergraduates-think-of-controversial-and-divisive-issues.pdf

https://www.hepi.ac.uk/reports/a-breed-apart-what-do-young-undergraduates-think-of-controversial-and-divisive-issues/

The data:
https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/A-breed-apart-polling-data.xlsx

p6: Transwomen and transmen

The questions were:
Q6. Do you think that biological males who identify as women should be allowed to use women’s changing rooms?

Question 6: the responses were:
Yes: 31% (male 26%) (female 33%) (16-19 - 29%) (20-21 - 32%)
No: 55% (male 63%) (female 50%) (16-19 - 58%) (20-21 - 53%)
Don't know: 14% (male 11%) (female 17%) (16-19 - 13%) (20-21 - 15%)

Q7. Do you think that biological females who identify as men should be allowed to use men’s changing rooms?

Question 7: the responses were:
Yes: 34% (male 31%) (female 36%) (16-19 - 34%) (20-21 - 35%)
No: 52% (male 58%) (female 47%) (16-19 - 53%) (20-21 - 51%)
Don't know: 14% (male 11%) (female 17%) (16-19 - 13%) (20-21 - 14%)

Comment from the report:
When asked for their views on the changing-room facilities that transwomen and transmen should be expected to use, roughly one-third of students say people should use the changing room assigned to their gender identity while one-half disagree (presumably assuming they should use the facility assigned to their sex at birth or a gender-neutral space). Although we asked about transwomen and transmen separately, the results were similar for these two groups.

In contrast, a 2026 JL Partners poll for Sex Matters found just one-in-five (19%) adults think people ‘should be allowed to use whichever facilities they prefer’. In the same poll, over one-third of respondents said people ‘should use the facilities of their sex at birth’ (36%) and another third said ‘they should not use facilities of the opposite sex but there should be an alternative’ (34%).

These results suggest students may be a little more favourable than the public overall towards those who wish to use the changing facility for their gender rather than the one for their sex at birth – but it is notable that both a majority of students and a majority of the whole adult population pick other options.

Most of the answers from the 18-24 year old age group for the Sex Matters March 2026 research are not far off this.

The question was: A transgender person is someone who says they are the other sex, that is, a person born male who identifies as a woman, or a person born female who identifies as a man. How do you think transgender people should be accommodated in toilets…

They should be allowed to use whichever facilities they prefer (18-24 yr age group responded):
At work - 38%,
In gyms and leisure centres - 30%,
At university - 30%,
In a bar or entertainment venue - 33%,
In public toilets - 30%
In hospital - 30%
They should not use facilities for the opposite sex but there should be an alternative (18-24 yr age group responded):
At work - 38%,
In gyms and leisure centres - 42%,
At university - 35%,
In a bar or entertainment venue - 32%,
In public toilets - 33%
In hospital - 32%
They should use the facilities of their sex at birth (18-24 yr age group responded) :
At work - 18%,
In gyms and leisure centres - 21%,
At university - 23%,
In a bar or entertainment venue - 26%,
In public toilets - 28%
In hospital - 28%
Unsure. (18-24 yr age group responded) :
At work - 12%,
In gyms and leisure centres - 12%,
At university - 12%,
In a bar or entertainment venue - 12%,
In public toilets - 12%
In hospital - 11%

Get away with you, with your pesky statistics! We want to discuss in very vague terms, what we would 'do' about something that's not really been explained.

Arran2024 · Yesterday 16:12

People campaign against all sorts of things which are popular with the public, even legal. Look at abortion, surrogacy.

InconvenientlyMaterial · Yesterday 16:30

quixote9 · Yesterday 15:32

The only reason there's an issue in OP's question is the confusion over rights and privileges.

Everyone has the same rights. That's what rights are. Otherwise they're privileges.

So all the usual civil rights, which everyone has without affecting the same rights for anyone else, apply to trans people. Job discrimination (except where sex is actually relevant to the job), housing discrimination, etc etc are illegal. Dress how you like (again, within the limits of job requirements). Marry whom you like.

But taking over single sex spaces is NOT in that class. If everybody did it, it wouldn't work for anybody. That's a privilege, not a right. That's why it does not work when applied universally. That's why women have to be told to shut up and be kind, because it's their rights being trampled.

Self-ID? Fine when it's applied to purely personal business. Same way as religious freedom is fine in that case.

Not fine when it's used to tell other people they can't have the same right to self-define.

It's not a question of what the majority thinks any more than any other right is.

Good explanation

I'd like the women who are happy to give away my rights to a single sex space in the UK to explain to me whether they also want to remove women in India's right to access single sex toilets, which is a far more recent development.

Or do they somehow think Western males pose no risk, as charities such as Oxfam appear to?

Helleofabore · Yesterday 22:39

For publicly accessed toilets and changing rooms, the ‘rights’ are that that they are segregated by sex or a safe single use provision. There is no expectation of privacy away from other users of the same sex beyond what is reasonable. For instance, it is reasonable to expect a door that locks on a toilet cubicle but not reasonable to expect privacy when washing hands in a shared communal space shared by other female people.

There are exceptions to the human rights article 8 that gives the right for single sex provisions based on safety. Hence there is no over riding right for male people to access female single sex provisions. That is a privilege not a right. It is often, through misinformation, called a ‘right’ but it is not.

Too often, some people misrepresent what is a right vs what is a privilege. It goes along with the empty mantras we so often see.

Original poster

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:43

SodThisHeadache · Yesterday 11:53

@Malificent

You don't seem to want to be 'bogged down in statistics' except when they serve your assumptions - and even then you didn't quote those statistics, just waved vaguely at them.

I agree it's young women who support self-ID more that men - that's because women have been misinformed (or not asked) about the nitty gritty of what self-ID results in (men in women's spaces, and not just the nice men they might know).
They interpret this question as 'should I accept what my nice friend says about himself; 'should I let men wear what they want' and even 'am I a bigot like all those old women'

Edited

Well, the question was whether you'd want self ID if you knew most women were against it. I clearly stated it was a hypothetical question and the reason I said I didn't want to get bogged down in statistics was because I knew people would start focusing on that rather than addressing the actual question which is irrelevant of actual reality.

Like, if somebody asked me what I'd do if I won the lottery I wouldn't spend ages explaining the statistical unlikeliness of me winning it. I stated that the studies I mentioned were from a Google AI search.

OP posts:

Original poster

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:48

Helleofabore · Yesterday 11:37

“But certainly it seems to be mainly women supporting self-ID rather than men”

This is a misrepresentation. Unless you can provide evidence to support the claim.

The majority of women do not support Self ID when it comes to use of female single sex provisions. If you are saying that more women than men support Self ID, that is a rather different statement to what you have made.

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If more women than men support self ID then saying that it's mainly women supporting self ID is an accurate statement.

OP posts:

Clavinova · Yesterday 22:50

NoWordForFluffy · Yesterday 15:37

If you have a binding referendum, it would be dealt with better than Brexit, which had no
minimum turnout / minimum vote split. (Plus, the Brexit referendum would've had its result voided if it had been binding, due to illegality.)

There is no way, if explained correctly, that the majority of women would vote for self ID, I am very confident about that.

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Plus, the Brexit referendum would've had its result voided if it had been binding, due to illegality.

Unlikely - this legal action failed;

Wilson and others v R (on the application of ) v the Prime Minister [2019] EWCA Civ 304

This Court rejected any notion that any breaches of the rules affected the outcome of the referendum result...

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2019/03/09/judicial-review-is-not-politics-by-another-means/

Helleofabore · Yesterday 22:51

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:48

If more women than men support self ID then saying that it's mainly women supporting self ID is an accurate statement.

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No. It really is not an accurate statement at all.

The majority of female people are not supporting self ID. Your statement can be misinterpreted.

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 22:52

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:48

If more women than men support self ID then saying that it's mainly women supporting self ID is an accurate statement.

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That's not true.
If there are more sparrows than blackbirds in my garden, that's not the same as saying it's mainly sparrows in my garden.

There could be 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds.

Edit to give an example

thirdfiddle · Yesterday 22:57

If a popular vote goes against logic, logic always wins.

We just have to hope that those with power to implement any changes also have the mental capacity to follow the logic and see the obvious flaws. If not we would be in for some very dark times while the obvious flaws play out. I think we're well beyond that possibility now. Tide has turned.

Original poster

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:59

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Yesterday 08:16

Thanks for the link, even in 2020 most people said NO, and yet people like the OP are still peddling the tripe that 'most women' support this.
Fortunately there are people on MN that have memories like elephants, and like the internet, they never forget. 😂
It would appear that the majority of women will not be voting for self ID OP, so your question is moot.

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Well, I've googled one of the surveys mentioned and doesn't look like a figment of my imagination.

Current YouGov survey in Germany on the Self-Determination Act

Tomorrow, November 1, 2024, the law on self-determination regarding gender marker comes into effect in Germany. When people in Germany aged 18 and over are asked about their opinion on the new law, almost half, and thus a majority, respond favorably: Based on what they know about it, 47 percent of Germans tend to/fully support the self-determination law. Conversely, 37 percent tend to/fully oppose it.

Support for the law is generally higher among women than among men: Just over half of the women surveyed in Germany (51 percent) are in favor of the new law, compared to 43 percent of men. Opposition is higher among men (43 percent) than among women (31 percent).

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

Das Selbstbestimmungsgesetz stößt unter Deutschen auf Akzeptanz

Aktuelle YouGov-Umfrage in Deutschland zum Selbstbestimmungsgesetz

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

OP posts:

Original poster

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:02

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 22:52

That's not true.
If there are more sparrows than blackbirds in my garden, that's not the same as saying it's mainly sparrows in my garden.

There could be 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds.

Edit to give an example

Edited

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Except that there are probably other varieties of bird in your garden aside from the two mentioned. What other varieties of human would be taking part in surveys aside from men and women?

OP posts:

Original poster

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:03

It would appear that the majority of women will not be voting for self ID OP, so your question is moot.

How is a hypothetical question moot because it's not based in reality? The whole point is that it's hypothetical.

OP posts:

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:11

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:59

Well, I've googled one of the surveys mentioned and doesn't look like a figment of my imagination.

Current YouGov survey in Germany on the Self-Determination Act

Tomorrow, November 1, 2024, the law on self-determination regarding gender marker comes into effect in Germany. When people in Germany aged 18 and over are asked about their opinion on the new law, almost half, and thus a majority, respond favorably: Based on what they know about it, 47 percent of Germans tend to/fully support the self-determination law. Conversely, 37 percent tend to/fully oppose it.

Support for the law is generally higher among women than among men: Just over half of the women surveyed in Germany (51 percent) are in favor of the new law, compared to 43 percent of men. Opposition is higher among men (43 percent) than among women (31 percent).

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

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You've missed a bit out. From that link (using translate) -

'A quarter (25 percent) of all respondents in Germany say they know quite well what the Self-Determination Act is about. Another 47 percent say they know roughly....However, 28 percent of all respondents in Germany stated that they did not really know what the law was about.'

So only 25% of a sample size of 2,028 people really knew what the Act was about?

Eeesh.

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:14

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:59

Well, I've googled one of the surveys mentioned and doesn't look like a figment of my imagination.

Current YouGov survey in Germany on the Self-Determination Act

Tomorrow, November 1, 2024, the law on self-determination regarding gender marker comes into effect in Germany. When people in Germany aged 18 and over are asked about their opinion on the new law, almost half, and thus a majority, respond favorably: Based on what they know about it, 47 percent of Germans tend to/fully support the self-determination law. Conversely, 37 percent tend to/fully oppose it.

Support for the law is generally higher among women than among men: Just over half of the women surveyed in Germany (51 percent) are in favor of the new law, compared to 43 percent of men. Opposition is higher among men (43 percent) than among women (31 percent).

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

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Did you read this ?

They asked about support without any follow up with checking whether the respondents agreed with male people accessing female single sex spaces?

Other polls that ask vague questions about supporting transgender rights show a positive result. However as soon as it is drilled down with a direct and clearly defined question that support diminishes significantly.

Not reviewing the data and the questions asked for polls such as this is an error. It is way AI reporting is not to be trusted.

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:15

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:11

You've missed a bit out. From that link (using translate) -

'A quarter (25 percent) of all respondents in Germany say they know quite well what the Self-Determination Act is about. Another 47 percent say they know roughly....However, 28 percent of all respondents in Germany stated that they did not really know what the law was about.'

So only 25% of a sample size of 2,028 people really knew what the Act was about?

Eeesh.

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Yep.

and there was no follow up question to verify this answer either.

Garbage In : Garbage Out.

Original poster

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:17

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 12:18

This thread seems to be another of those tactics to get women to back down or shut up because they may hold opinions that are not popular.

Fuck off. We can have views which are shared by everyone and no one. Women do not have to comply and conform and we have every right not to.

Fuck off yourself. 🤣

Most people who are comfortable in their views are happy to discuss them. When people take a 'no debate' approach it's not usually a good sign.

There's genuinely no ulterior motive. I'm firmly against men in women's places no matter how they identify but it's not something that keeps me up at night and I'm interested in other people's views.

I did suspect it would quickly descend into a defensive pile on or that people would use it as an opportunity to shoehorn in all the usual arguments which is why I tried to keep it focused on the hypothetical question I was interested in rather than getting into a war of references.

I only mentioned the studies because I've read a lot about how European women are more in favour than we are, which is what made me reflect on what my stance would be if I was in the minority. But ultimately it doesn't really make any difference to the question whether or not my views are the majority.

OP posts:

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:21

In addition, following the link to the results, the two questions asked were as follows (again using a translate tool) -

'On November 1, the law will be passed in Germany on self-determination in relation to the Gender entry comes into force. How would you like your Assess the level of knowledge on what exactly it is about This law goes?'

'The Self-Determination Act is intended to support the process.facilitate trans, intersex and non-binary persons register their gender entry in the Change the civil status register and your first name want to leave. After everything you know about it,Do you support the Self-Determination Act or reject it? Do you want it off?'

So a very general question about an act poorly understood by most respondants.

Again, eeesh.

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 23:24

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:02

Except that there are probably other varieties of bird in your garden aside from the two mentioned. What other varieties of human would be taking part in surveys aside from men and women?

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That's a swerve, because you have been shown to be wrong.
Let's pretend that there are just 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds and no other birds in the garden. When you look in the garden, you would be incorrect to say that it's mainly sparrows in the garden.