If the majority of women voted in favour of self ID?

Perhaps if the question put to young women was “Do you support self ID?” Immediately followed by “Do you support the right of an adult male to get undressed in a room full of teenage girls?” And then “Would you happily get undressed in front of adult males unknown to you at the local swimming pool?”
See if they still overwhelmingly support self ID then like in all these other progressive countries…

No.

Firstly, objective reality exists. I do not subscribe to the sort of extreme social constructionism that argues that things only exist because people say they do. If the majority of women declared that a male could become a female, it wouldn't make that a true fact any more than people genuinely believing that the sun was the centre of the universe made it true.

Secondly, there is a reason we don't govern by 'tyranny of the majority'. Minority groups have rights. A majority of women saying 'we don't mind if males are in our intimate spaces' does not override the minority who say no. You can't give consent on another woman's behalf. You can be happy to personally use a unisex space shared with those males. That's fine. You can't remove single-sex spaces simply because sex-based rights aren't important to you personally. Other women have rights too, including religious women, women who have suffered trauma, and anyone else who simply values privacy, dignity and safety and therefore doesn't want males sharing their intimate spaces, no matter how those males identify.

That sounds very sensible to me.

I don't particularly care what model we end up with so long as women's single sex spaces are maintained.

Oh and so long as language is clear. If the space is unisex, then let it be labelled unisex.

Absolutely. On another thread I suggelsted that it would be a good idea to move to a default that in any provision, at least one third (rounding up) should be single-sex for female, at least one third (rounding up) should be unisex (and should be the default choice for all the women who proclaim they are happy to share with men, who can provide validation services for TIMs in there as well as anyine else who likes being in mixed sex spaces for any reason) and the remainder should be for males.

So - space for 2 loos - keep one single sex for women, so that those women who need single-sex for any reason can. The other can be unisex. Space for 3 loos - one female, one male, one unisex. Etc etc.

I was shouted down by people who think there should be just male and female and the trans-identifyimg should just get over it but I really don't think that is realistic. OTOH there seem to be plenty of businesses that have a budget for virtue-signalling and this would be a way to guarantee everyone has a place to pee without breaking the law.

It's not perfect, but it's a lot more practical and realistic than other suggestions.

"I'm not so interested in hearing about the stats/reality" in your original post, but here you are quoting stats, to make it look as if the UK and the US are outliers. Perhaps we are, and perhaps for once we are ahead of the game and have recognised the problem with self-id, which is that people use it to claim rights and privileges at the expense of other people (particularly women).

The thing with surveys about 'self id' or any mans right to be a women is that the results are unreliable because everyone's interpretation is deferent.

If someone thinks in terms of clothes and name changed, the results will be different to a question that talks about reallocated nhs money to enabling TW to become pregnant. Everyone would say that is a pointless waste of money because they are male.

The question is always "given we know these people are male, in which situations can we pretend that they are female?".

It can never be self id because everyone will have limits to who can pretend and in what circumstances.

@Maleficent

"I'd also be conflicted if the choice was in my hands and I knew my preferred choice would be against the wishes of most women"

Can you please explain what you mean by this. How could the 'choice be in your hands'?

And either you have principles or you don't. If you thought self-id was wrong, how could you (in this hypothetical 'having a choice' of which you speak) choose something you did not believe in?

The majority of people who voted in my borough (probably the majority of my friends) voted for a Green Council and a Green Mayor recently.
I did not vote Green just to keep in with what my friends wanted, to fulfil what they believed would be positive outcome eg for the environment, because I think they did not possess good information about what they were voting for.

I this the sort of thing you mean?

If a majority of women want unisex provision, fine. It already exists and there would be an argument for expanding it.

There would not, however, be an argument for taking single sex provision away from those women who still want/need it and do not consent to share their spaces with men.

Exactly.

We're told "gender" is the defining characteristic, but what are we actually supposed to take from that? Hormonally grown tits, heels and a wig do not speak louder than stereotypically male aggression, threats, violence, piss protests, voyeurism, indecent exposure and utter dismissal of the lived experience of women.

Edit to add: I am in no way suggesting all males with a trans ID exemplify the worst of these stereotypically male traits. But unfortunately the current iteration of trans ideology insists that many of these traits are actually inherent to a male trans ID. This is obviously extremely dangerous! And sadly the mainstream media is not keen to platform transwomen who, for example, use male spaces and stand with women, rather than speaking for them.

"The majority of German women support the self-identification law, known in Germany as the Selbstbestimmungsgesetz (Self-Determination Act), with extensive polling showing that women consistently express higher rates of approval for the legislation than men."

I always find it interesting that men are more likely to NOT support self ID.

I think that this is because men know what men can be like! They know all about dodgy men.

Of course young women are going to be pro self ID! There's been an aggressive push to indoctrinate them throughout their childhood and they are heavily coerced into self negation.

This is nothing new. It's plain old misogyny, with a slightly different flavour.

I missed the trans training growing up in 90s/00s (although ironically I did know actual transexuals and they were a world away from the current ideology) but I was still socialised into putting men and their feelings first. All the abuse and assaults I endured, I assumed were 100% my fault! Never even considered involving the police. Our culture colluded to hide the fact it was actually an endemic problem in society. I was in my 30s when I found out how common rape actually is.

This particular flavour of misogyny is also a class issue. Generally, it's privileged women who have no issues giving away the rights of other women. Women who don't expect to be strip searched or incarcerated or who have the means to comfortably survive maternity discrimination.

When historical biases such as misogyny, racism, ableism and homophobia run so deep in society, I think a progressive stance is to take positive actions against them and try to enshrine these stances in laws. Otherwise every reactionary political swing to the hard right, every top- down, well funded , astro-turfed lobbying group, risks making life more dangerous for everyone.

Self id - the right for a man to claim he is female and be treated as such is never going to work. Not because of laws or opinion polls but because of reality.

The best these men can do is campaign to remove sex as an official category and a PC. But it won't abolish sex or make men female.

If we do decide to organise on individuals men's idea of their gender not sex, how long before we notice sex again?

Do we have to pretend its random who has periods and give birth, who has a 0% chance of ovarian cancer and who has an non zero chance?

Are we going to claim that the testicular cancer rates have reduced because we have to assume anyone can have it?

Do we have to ignore the criminality rates? Is everyone going to be happy with men following girls into toilets and changing rooms because there is a law to say these men are female?

Its fantasy.

Self id cannot work because we see sex, we know there are differences between the sexes. A law to remove sex will last three minutes.

This

AI is GIGO. Garbage in garbage out.

Ask AI is ‘self ID’ is supported and it will tell you the superficial level polling data. Ask it specifically if the majority of female people support any male person above 8 yrs old being in a female single sex provision, and I believe you will get a different AI result.

Ask then for any country that will prosecute a female person for saying a male person is not female or for misgendering or for denying a male access where he demands access to what should be a female single sex provision and the results will be even smaller. If any at all.

You are mistaken, in the countries where self ID has been imposed on the population women weren't asked if they supported it and they haven't been asked if they support it since it's been introduced. You can't claim women seem to be mostly in favour if nobody's bothered to ask them if they are or not.
There appear to have been quite a lot of large scale population surveys as per my second post. Also, we're talking hypothetically as I keep stating. That's why I said "if the majority of women were in favour".

The only thing you've provided to back up your claim is information from Google AI, just because an AI says it's so, doesn't make it fact. You need to link to the survey's the AI is using as source information, so we can judge for ourselves on the veracity of the survey.
Your question is meaningless, it supposes that such a thing could happen, which is highly unlikely. You might as well ask, If pigs could fly would we all shoot beacon for breakfast?

Yep

People can identify as anything they wish to.

Not one other person should be coerced in anyway, either by emotional manipulation or law, to act as if one person’s subjective reality that is provably not based on material reality, is based on material reality.

A person’s identity should have no bearing as to which single sex provision that person is eligible to use. That is based on sex category which is not mutable.

No majority of people should vote to negate the legitimate consent of people who have legitimate needs for single sex provisions where a group of . So it doesn’t fucking matter if a ‘majority’ of people who only have superficial knowledge of what a question is really asking, support a concept if the application of that concept negates the consent of those women who will be negatively impacted by changing the access of a protected characteristic provision.

Self-IDing into single sex spaces simply makes no rational sense. There is no way to distinguish between a space that is "for all females plus any male who wants to enter" and a mixed sex space. There is no definition that makes such a distinction make sense. Self ID is the same thing as complete abolition of single sex spaces. Even if 90% of the population want self ID (I do not think it's actually anywhere near a majority but even it it were it would not change the facts) and even if the law gets changed to suit TRA demands (I don't think it will) any space that allows self ID will always be rationally, factually and materially a mixed-sex space.

This thread seems to be another of those tactics to get women to back down or shut up because they may hold opinions that are not popular.

Fuck off. We can have views which are shared by everyone and no one. Women do not have to comply and conform and we have every right not to.

We live in a liberal democracy.

Getting a majority opinion in a liberal democracy has always been something that's been irrelevance to the functioning of safeguarding and protections.

This isn't about a debate into democracy. This is a pillar of rights to understand that everyone is equal and things have to be balanced to respect ALL rights and the privacy and dignity of everyone concerned.

Third spaces being available is a solution to this. There is not an alternative solution. It does not violate the dignity and privacy of individuals and anyone wishing to support trans people in sharing facilities should be using them to help. Otherwise they are just fucking hypocrites who don't get a shit about rights of everyone - just the people they approve of.

This is the point: rights are for everyone - this includes foreign nationals here legally or illegally, rapists, murderers as well as any other law abiding and men, women and children. You don't get to pick and choose.

My view on whether men should be allowed to use female SSS on the basis of self ID is unaffected by what other people's opinions are. I believe it is wrong regardless of whether any one else agrees with me.

We have asked quite a few posters recently who have made very similar claims that ‘most women believe TWAW’ or most women support Self ID etc.

Not one of them has produced a poll that was population wide and asked specific and drilled down questions that then proved consistency.

If any one is making claims such as this, they do need to support it.

@Malificent

You don't seem to want to be 'bogged down in statistics' except when they serve your assumptions - and even then you didn't quote those statistics, just waved vaguely at them.

I agree it's young women who support self-ID more that men - that's because women have been misinformed (or not asked) about the nitty gritty of what self-ID results in (men in women's spaces, and not just the nice men they might know).
They interpret this question as 'should I accept what my nice friend says about himself; 'should I let men wear what they want' and even 'am I a bigot like all those old women'

Across other counties you cant take their cultural norms out of this. Ireland might have self ID, but I never see a trans person in real life (outside of Pride tv coverage) apart from the occasional alternative teenager. In contrast when in the UK I see more "men in dresses" out doing their thing.
Ireland is a deeply conservative and conformist place, and the law and policy often bares little resemblance to reality. But we like to be seen as progressive and tolerant so will tell the fictional reality to poll takers. Id imagine many traditionally Catholic places are similar.
America is a whole different kettle of fish, with LGB rights being relatively new, sports being a religion and hard line Christians all over the pace.

“But certainly it seems to be mainly women supporting self-ID rather than men”

This is a misrepresentation. Unless you can provide evidence to support the claim.

The majority of women do not support Self ID when it comes to use of female single sex provisions. If you are saying that more women than men support Self ID, that is a rather different statement to what you have made.

You didn’t link the polls.

Perhaps you could link the polls to see exactly what was asked and of who.