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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If the majority of women voted in favour of self ID?

207 replies

MaIeficent · Yesterday 00:45

What would you do?

Completely hypothetical question. I'm not so interested in hearing about the stats/reality or that 'it would never happen'. Just hypothetically what people's stance would be if it did.

I'm conflicted as I don't think I could ever be in favour but I simultaneously support the right of women to make their own choices even if I disagree with them.

Would you defer to them in recognition that this is the decision that makes women as a whole happiest or would you soldier on and try and impose the wishes of a minority group onto a majority of dissenting women?

OP posts:
AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 23:48

If you didn't want a discussion about data you shouldn't have stated this, especially without a link:

Apparently YouGov polling shows that the majority of young women in the UK 'overwhelmingly support self ID'.

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:42

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:33

You are the one who made claims about the majority currently supporting it.

You personally drifted into making claims that you cannot support with reliable evidence.

Most posters have already answered your question within their posts, one way or another.

It is relevant to mention the poor quality of the information that you, personally, introduced into the thread.

But the studies referenced are kinda irrelevant. I mentioned them in passing for the reason that they made me consider "what would be my feelings if I was actually in the minority?" Because if you thought you were fighting for women but then realised that most actually disagreed with you it would give you pause for thought.

What I was interested in knowing was whether anybody else ever thinks this and what their thoughts on it were. I didn't really want to have an endless discussion about data because it's not what I was asking and honestly because I'm not particularly interested in it.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:36

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 23:24

That's a swerve, because you have been shown to be wrong.
Let's pretend that there are just 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds and no other birds in the garden. When you look in the garden, you would be incorrect to say that it's mainly sparrows in the garden.

Your point is also relevant because there is not just two answers to the question.

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:35

SodThisHeadache · Yesterday 13:57

@Maleficent

"I'd also be conflicted if the choice was in my hands and I knew my preferred choice would be against the wishes of most women"

Can you please explain what you mean by this. How could the 'choice be in your hands'?

And either you have principles or you don't. If you thought self-id was wrong, how could you (in this hypothetical 'having a choice' of which you speak) choose something you did not believe in?

The majority of people who voted in my borough (probably the majority of my friends) voted for a Green Council and a Green Mayor recently.
I did not vote Green just to keep in with what my friends wanted, to fulfil what they believed would be positive outcome eg for the environment, because I think they did not possess good information about what they were voting for.

I this the sort of thing you mean?

Edited

Can you please explain what you mean by this. How could the 'choice be in your hands'?

It's a hypothetical question so no the choice will almost certainly never be in my hands.

And either you have principles or you don't. If you thought self-id was wrong, how could you (in this hypothetical 'having a choice' of which you speak) choose something you did not believe in?

I think it's a common human occurrence to sometimes support people in things we don't agree with. It could be that your daughter is set on joining the army and although you're ideologically opposed you support her because it's what she wants. Or maybe you're the one that picks the restaurant for the work meal and you opt for a steakhouse because that's what everybody else wants although you're a vegetarian.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:33

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:25

And how is this relevant to the actual OP?

I've said several times that it's like somebody asking what I'd do if I won the lottery. The answer generally wouldn't involve a long discussion of the likelihood of me actually winning.

This seems to be a common tactic on here to derail discussions that posters want shut down. They'll pick a specific point and then try and go down a rabbit hole of requesting ever more data.

Then question was if the majority of women didn't agree with you. It presupposes that that's the situation as would a question about what I'd do if I won the lottery. It's not difficult.

And before somebody says it....no, I'm not a man.

You are the one who made claims about the majority currently supporting it.

You personally drifted into making claims that you cannot support with reliable evidence.

Most posters have already answered your question within their posts, one way or another.

It is relevant to mention the poor quality of the information that you, personally, introduced into the thread.

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:29

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:21

In addition, following the link to the results, the two questions asked were as follows (again using a translate tool) -

'On November 1, the law will be passed in Germany on self-determination in relation to the Gender entry comes into force. How would you like your Assess the level of knowledge on what exactly it is about This law goes?'

'The Self-Determination Act is intended to support the process.facilitate trans, intersex and non-binary persons register their gender entry in the Change the civil status register and your first name want to leave. After everything you know about it,Do you support the Self-Determination Act or reject it? Do you want it off?'

So a very general question about an act poorly understood by most respondants.

Again, eeesh.

Yes. Even a basic translation showed this is a really poor quality questionnaire.

If I wanted to show support for a concept, I would limit a questionnaire like this. It is ambiguous and will only get a general positive response. Because, the outcomes of this law is not a well understood.

The people commissioning the poll understood that by keeping it all very unclear, they would get the positive result they wanted.

I look forward to a native German speaker being able to give a deeper understanding to questions. But from basic google translation , it relied on people knowing nothing about the outcomes of the legislation

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:25

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:15

Yep.

and there was no follow up question to verify this answer either.

Garbage In : Garbage Out.

And how is this relevant to the actual OP?

I've said several times that it's like somebody asking what I'd do if I won the lottery. The answer generally wouldn't involve a long discussion of the likelihood of me actually winning.

This seems to be a common tactic on here to derail discussions that posters want shut down. They'll pick a specific point and then try and go down a rabbit hole of requesting ever more data.

Then question was if the majority of women didn't agree with you. It presupposes that that's the situation as would a question about what I'd do if I won the lottery. It's not difficult.

And before somebody says it....no, I'm not a man.

OP posts:
AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 23:24

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:02

Except that there are probably other varieties of bird in your garden aside from the two mentioned. What other varieties of human would be taking part in surveys aside from men and women?

That's a swerve, because you have been shown to be wrong.
Let's pretend that there are just 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds and no other birds in the garden. When you look in the garden, you would be incorrect to say that it's mainly sparrows in the garden.

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:21

In addition, following the link to the results, the two questions asked were as follows (again using a translate tool) -

'On November 1, the law will be passed in Germany on self-determination in relation to the Gender entry comes into force. How would you like your Assess the level of knowledge on what exactly it is about This law goes?'

'The Self-Determination Act is intended to support the process.facilitate trans, intersex and non-binary persons register their gender entry in the Change the civil status register and your first name want to leave. After everything you know about it,Do you support the Self-Determination Act or reject it? Do you want it off?'

So a very general question about an act poorly understood by most respondants.

Again, eeesh.

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:17

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 12:18

This thread seems to be another of those tactics to get women to back down or shut up because they may hold opinions that are not popular.

Fuck off. We can have views which are shared by everyone and no one. Women do not have to comply and conform and we have every right not to.

Fuck off yourself. 🤣

Most people who are comfortable in their views are happy to discuss them. When people take a 'no debate' approach it's not usually a good sign.

There's genuinely no ulterior motive. I'm firmly against men in women's places no matter how they identify but it's not something that keeps me up at night and I'm interested in other people's views.

I did suspect it would quickly descend into a defensive pile on or that people would use it as an opportunity to shoehorn in all the usual arguments which is why I tried to keep it focused on the hypothetical question I was interested in rather than getting into a war of references.

I only mentioned the studies because I've read a lot about how European women are more in favour than we are, which is what made me reflect on what my stance would be if I was in the minority. But ultimately it doesn't really make any difference to the question whether or not my views are the majority.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:15

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:11

You've missed a bit out. From that link (using translate) -

'A quarter (25 percent) of all respondents in Germany say they know quite well what the Self-Determination Act is about. Another 47 percent say they know roughly....However, 28 percent of all respondents in Germany stated that they did not really know what the law was about.'

So only 25% of a sample size of 2,028 people really knew what the Act was about?

Eeesh.

Yep.

and there was no follow up question to verify this answer either.

Garbage In : Garbage Out.

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:14

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:59

Well, I've googled one of the surveys mentioned and doesn't look like a figment of my imagination.

Current YouGov survey in Germany on the Self-Determination Act

Tomorrow, November 1, 2024, the law on self-determination regarding gender marker comes into effect in Germany. When people in Germany aged 18 and over are asked about their opinion on the new law, almost half, and thus a majority, respond favorably: Based on what they know about it, 47 percent of Germans tend to/fully support the self-determination law. Conversely, 37 percent tend to/fully oppose it.

Support for the law is generally higher among women than among men: Just over half of the women surveyed in Germany (51 percent) are in favor of the new law, compared to 43 percent of men. Opposition is higher among men (43 percent) than among women (31 percent).

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

Did you read this ?

They asked about support without any follow up with checking whether the respondents agreed with male people accessing female single sex spaces?

Other polls that ask vague questions about supporting transgender rights show a positive result. However as soon as it is drilled down with a direct and clearly defined question that support diminishes significantly.

Not reviewing the data and the questions asked for polls such as this is an error. It is way AI reporting is not to be trusted.

Waitwhat23 · Yesterday 23:11

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:59

Well, I've googled one of the surveys mentioned and doesn't look like a figment of my imagination.

Current YouGov survey in Germany on the Self-Determination Act

Tomorrow, November 1, 2024, the law on self-determination regarding gender marker comes into effect in Germany. When people in Germany aged 18 and over are asked about their opinion on the new law, almost half, and thus a majority, respond favorably: Based on what they know about it, 47 percent of Germans tend to/fully support the self-determination law. Conversely, 37 percent tend to/fully oppose it.

Support for the law is generally higher among women than among men: Just over half of the women surveyed in Germany (51 percent) are in favor of the new law, compared to 43 percent of men. Opposition is higher among men (43 percent) than among women (31 percent).

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

You've missed a bit out. From that link (using translate) -

'A quarter (25 percent) of all respondents in Germany say they know quite well what the Self-Determination Act is about. Another 47 percent say they know roughly....However, 28 percent of all respondents in Germany stated that they did not really know what the law was about.'

So only 25% of a sample size of 2,028 people really knew what the Act was about?

Eeesh.

MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:03

It would appear that the majority of women will not be voting for self ID OP, so your question is moot.

How is a hypothetical question moot because it's not based in reality? The whole point is that it's hypothetical.

OP posts:
MaIeficent · Yesterday 23:02

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 22:52

That's not true.
If there are more sparrows than blackbirds in my garden, that's not the same as saying it's mainly sparrows in my garden.

There could be 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds.

Edit to give an example

Edited

Except that there are probably other varieties of bird in your garden aside from the two mentioned. What other varieties of human would be taking part in surveys aside from men and women?

OP posts:
MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:59

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Yesterday 08:16

Thanks for the link, even in 2020 most people said NO, and yet people like the OP are still peddling the tripe that 'most women' support this.
Fortunately there are people on MN that have memories like elephants, and like the internet, they never forget. 😂
It would appear that the majority of women will not be voting for self ID OP, so your question is moot.

Well, I've googled one of the surveys mentioned and doesn't look like a figment of my imagination.

Current YouGov survey in Germany on the Self-Determination Act

Tomorrow, November 1, 2024, the law on self-determination regarding gender marker comes into effect in Germany. When people in Germany aged 18 and over are asked about their opinion on the new law, almost half, and thus a majority, respond favorably: Based on what they know about it, 47 percent of Germans tend to/fully support the self-determination law. Conversely, 37 percent tend to/fully oppose it.

Support for the law is generally higher among women than among men: Just over half of the women surveyed in Germany (51 percent) are in favor of the new law, compared to 43 percent of men. Opposition is higher among men (43 percent) than among women (31 percent).

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

Das Selbstbestimmungsgesetz stößt unter Deutschen auf Akzeptanz

Aktuelle YouGov-Umfrage in Deutschland zum Selbstbestimmungsgesetz

https://yougov.com/de-de/artikel/50835-das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-stosst-unter-deutschen-auf-akzeptanz

OP posts:
thirdfiddle · Yesterday 22:57

If a popular vote goes against logic, logic always wins.

We just have to hope that those with power to implement any changes also have the mental capacity to follow the logic and see the obvious flaws. If not we would be in for some very dark times while the obvious flaws play out. I think we're well beyond that possibility now. Tide has turned.

AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 22:52

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:48

If more women than men support self ID then saying that it's mainly women supporting self ID is an accurate statement.

That's not true.
If there are more sparrows than blackbirds in my garden, that's not the same as saying it's mainly sparrows in my garden.

There could be 6 sparrows and 5 blackbirds.

Edit to give an example

Helleofabore · Yesterday 22:51

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:48

If more women than men support self ID then saying that it's mainly women supporting self ID is an accurate statement.

No. It really is not an accurate statement at all.

The majority of female people are not supporting self ID. Your statement can be misinterpreted.

Clavinova · Yesterday 22:50

NoWordForFluffy · Yesterday 15:37

If you have a binding referendum, it would be dealt with better than Brexit, which had no
minimum turnout / minimum vote split. (Plus, the Brexit referendum would've had its result voided if it had been binding, due to illegality.)

There is no way, if explained correctly, that the majority of women would vote for self ID, I am very confident about that.

Plus, the Brexit referendum would've had its result voided if it had been binding, due to illegality.

Unlikely - this legal action failed;

Wilson and others v R (on the application of ) v the Prime Minister [2019] EWCA Civ 304

This Court rejected any notion that any breaches of the rules affected the outcome of the referendum result...

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2019/03/09/judicial-review-is-not-politics-by-another-means/

MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:48

Helleofabore · Yesterday 11:37

But certainly it seems to be mainly women supporting self-ID rather than men

This is a misrepresentation. Unless you can provide evidence to support the claim.

The majority of women do not support Self ID when it comes to use of female single sex provisions. If you are saying that more women than men support Self ID, that is a rather different statement to what you have made.

If more women than men support self ID then saying that it's mainly women supporting self ID is an accurate statement.

OP posts:
MaIeficent · Yesterday 22:43

SodThisHeadache · Yesterday 11:53

@Malificent

You don't seem to want to be 'bogged down in statistics' except when they serve your assumptions - and even then you didn't quote those statistics, just waved vaguely at them.

I agree it's young women who support self-ID more that men - that's because women have been misinformed (or not asked) about the nitty gritty of what self-ID results in (men in women's spaces, and not just the nice men they might know).
They interpret this question as 'should I accept what my nice friend says about himself; 'should I let men wear what they want' and even 'am I a bigot like all those old women'

Edited

Well, the question was whether you'd want self ID if you knew most women were against it. I clearly stated it was a hypothetical question and the reason I said I didn't want to get bogged down in statistics was because I knew people would start focusing on that rather than addressing the actual question which is irrelevant of actual reality.

Like, if somebody asked me what I'd do if I won the lottery I wouldn't spend ages explaining the statistical unlikeliness of me winning it. I stated that the studies I mentioned were from a Google AI search.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · Yesterday 22:39

For publicly accessed toilets and changing rooms, the ‘rights’ are that that they are segregated by sex or a safe single use provision. There is no expectation of privacy away from other users of the same sex beyond what is reasonable. For instance, it is reasonable to expect a door that locks on a toilet cubicle but not reasonable to expect privacy when washing hands in a shared communal space shared by other female people.

There are exceptions to the human rights article 8 that gives the right for single sex provisions based on safety. Hence there is no over riding right for male people to access female single sex provisions. That is a privilege not a right. It is often, through misinformation, called a ‘right’ but it is not.

Too often, some people misrepresent what is a right vs what is a privilege. It goes along with the empty mantras we so often see.

InconvenientlyMaterial · Yesterday 16:30

quixote9 · Yesterday 15:32

The only reason there's an issue in OP's question is the confusion over rights and privileges.

Everyone has the same rights. That's what rights are. Otherwise they're privileges.

So all the usual civil rights, which everyone has without affecting the same rights for anyone else, apply to trans people. Job discrimination (except where sex is actually relevant to the job), housing discrimination, etc etc are illegal. Dress how you like (again, within the limits of job requirements). Marry whom you like.

But taking over single sex spaces is NOT in that class. If everybody did it, it wouldn't work for anybody. That's a privilege, not a right. That's why it does not work when applied universally. That's why women have to be told to shut up and be kind, because it's their rights being trampled.

Self-ID? Fine when it's applied to purely personal business. Same way as religious freedom is fine in that case.

Not fine when it's used to tell other people they can't have the same right to self-define.

It's not a question of what the majority thinks any more than any other right is.

Good explanation

I'd like the women who are happy to give away my rights to a single sex space in the UK to explain to me whether they also want to remove women in India's right to access single sex toilets, which is a far more recent development.

Or do they somehow think Western males pose no risk, as charities such as Oxfam appear to?

Arran2024 · Yesterday 16:12

People campaign against all sorts of things which are popular with the public, even legal. Look at abortion, surrogacy.