If the majority of women voted in favour of self ID?

Lorraine Kelly had guests on her talk show after the announcement who decried FWS as being "cruel & spiteful to celebrate the rolling back of rights" while giving FWS no right of reply.

Basically, any indication that women were pleased that they had achieved a victory in a long fought legal battle was framed as unkind.

It was the pictures of FWS looking victorious outside the court IIRC.

Bloody amazing moment which absolutely deserved celebration, and yet there were some people (TRAs) who thought it wasn't a good look for women to look even a little bit pleased with winning an important court case... for the benefit of women.

I agree. I think I will do the Homer Simpson thing and back out quietly (unless we get more unsubstantiated claims about opinion polls).

It is usually accepted that groups advocating for the rights of their group, or giving support to a particular different group, should do just that, not squander their limited resource and energy on advocating for everyone else.

Not feminists though. If they don't include men in their definition of women they are "transphobic bigots". And some very intersectional forms of feminism seem to think that feminism should be about liberating everybody, not standing up for women.

The "don't cheer if you win" bit was inspired by some real headlines when the Supreme Court judgement came out. I forget who it was, but at least one public figure told women not to be too obviously pleased. Maybe someone here can remember who it was?

If I had known it was going to turn into this poor menz the women are all lazy white middle class SAHMs, who happily lay back enjoying a life of leisure while the poor menz have to fight wars and work in mines.

Feels like time and effort on my part expecting a good faith discussion on the topic at hand, not well spent.

My last driver's mate was a 22yo with a conviction for gbh for hitting somebody with a bottle. He was actually a good lad with a great work ethic. He'd grown up in a pretty dysfunctional background and couldn't drink as it made him volatile.

Is this guy a 'knuckle-dragger'?

The statistics show that the majority of pensioners in poverty are women, and that British women retire with private pension wealth that is roughly half that of men.

Since this is caused by career breaks and part-time work, and no longer direct discrimination, I suppose one could now say that it’s just tough cheese for anyone who ends up not having contributed enough to the tax pot over their career - but IME that ignores the fact that bringing up children is not a neutral activity and would need to be taken into account better if the balance is to be truly equal.

I'm guessing it's going to be that ubiquitous photo of men welding at a oil rig which seems to be so popular among the 'men do all the dangerous jobs - women live life on easy mode!!' manospherers.

At least half of the women I worked with in my corporate career are now working part time

And how does that affect their career? Is it maximising it?

@Helleofabore
Q6. Do you think that biological males who identify as women should be allowed to use women’s changing rooms?
Question 6: the responses were:
Yes: 31% (male 26%) (female 33%) (16-19 - 29%) (20-21 - 32%)
No: 55% (male 63%) (female 50%) (16-19 - 58%) (20-21 - 53%)
Don't know: 14% (male 11%) (female 17%) (16-19 - 13%) (20-21 - 15%)

Quite astounding that more women than men think this is ok! Why? Because women are more empathetic? Because men know, even more than women do, what men are like and are capable of? I find it really bizarre.

Gosh. Working class knuckle draggers. Whatever next.

Imagine a sports league.
Teams A, C, D, E and F are told "play to win". It's seen as entirely natural and reasonable.
Team B is told that if they don't ensure that the other side gets at least as many goals as they do, they are mean, selfish and hateful. And if they do win, their supporters absolutely mustn't cheer.

And the central premise of your OP is, if a majority of women supported self id then should the rest of us defer to the majority position!

You've got a bit of a cheek saying that other people haven't read stuff when you've introduced research and links which you yourself admit you haven't read!

Aw and I was hoping to come back on a promise for a reply but see that I've come back to a riff on "men have it so much worse than white, middle class feminists" as if that's the only demographic of women who are feminists. Oh what fun for all of us!

Oh well, I've got stuff to do, maybe I'll get a reply to my earlier posts some time in the future, or not.

Ah so non-binaries, demi cats and whatnot don’t exist now? How very bigoted of you!

@MaIeficent I wonder if part of the problem with the twists and turns on this thread is that you seem to be quite unsure of what you yourself believe. For example, upthread you said:

The usual response seems to be "oh, but who is doing the killing" but I don't really see it as the gotcha many seem to believe it is. It only works when you make sweeping generalisations and lump all men together.

and then a post or two later you said:

I'm just glad that I'm a women sometimes when I see how men treat each other.

So you don't like sweeping generalisations, and then you make one yourself. It's fine to use a thread to work through how you feel about an issue, but it will mean that the thread will veer around somewhat.