If the majority of women voted in favour of self ID?

No you're not. That's just how you choose to frame it for some reason. Who's saying we should ignore self ID? I've said at least 3-4 times that I strongly oppose it. Have you actually read the discussion you're commenting on?

Except that there are probably other varieties of bird in your garden aside from the two mentioned. What other varieties of human would be taking part in surveys aside from men and women?

I'll have to come back to some of these as it's almost 1:30am and I still need to get out my gym stuff and jump in the shower/make some food etc.

What exactly is this apparently objectional behaviour/attitudes of the women that call themselves feminists that makes other women reject the "feminist" label?

Tbh, I don't agree with a lot of the stuff I read from people that call themselves feminists. When it descends into 'it's not all men but it's most of them" etc it usually turns me away tbh. I see a lot of stuff I feel you'd never see said about any demographic. Like, the view that innocent men need to stand up against the bad men if they don't want to be tarred with the same brush. People never say that about innocent members of demographics overly represented in terrorism attacks or overrepresented in crime stats etc. I mostly believe in individual accountability over group culpabiiity.

I also think some feminists are too myopic and only focus on sex. They'll dismiss male victims of violence by saying "oh, but what sex was the attacker?" This doesn't sit right with me because a victim of a racist or homophobic attack isn't any less a victim because his attacker was male. Sometimes there are factors more dividing than sex. It isn't women's fault of course but it doesn't negate the impact or victimhood.

I don't really see most men as being particularly privileged. Certainly the working class guys I work with lead much less privileged lives than most of women in my majority female team of middle class women when I had a corporate job. I feel that it's a small number of elite men holding most of the wealth and everybody else below them. I also don't understand the fixation with male CEOs. I don't know many CEOs full stop.

I also see a lot of disingenuous claims. Like the claim that 'most men would rape if they could get away with it'. I read the study and it was something like 50 high school students from one college who were apparently given course credits for participating (so likely had a vested interest and may have given silly answers). But either way a tiny sample size of men from one country of a narrow age group can't be used to make broad claims about men in general.

Then I read a discussion about the world's biggest metastudy of DV which found that despite men causing more death/serious injury, women actually commit more domestic abuse. It was conducted by over 100 academics from 20 universities in US/UK/Canada alongside DV associations and they read over 10,000 studies and closely analysed the data from 1200 peer reviewed studies. It was called the 'Partner Abuse State of Knowledge' project.

Some of the same posters who'd referenced that study of 50 college students were loudly proclaiming that the data was 'dodgy' etc but it just seemed disingenuous given the study they'd been using in the other thread. That's just one example. And if you question it you'll usually called a man or a pick me/dick panderer/handmaiden etc. Honestly, I'll usually steer clear of posters who use those phrases as it tells you exactly what type of person they are.

And I'd probs never have chosen to work in the construction sector had I read half the stuff I've since read on here, but I love it. I agree with a lot of feminism but some of it seems determined to make women afraid of their own shadow. Some women get really narky if you say you're not afraid of men (although of course I exercise common sense in terms of safety). I would ultimately rather work alongside the good men than spend all my energy focusing on the bad ones. But granted I'm lucky enough to not live somewhere where women are particularly oppressed.

I have lots of things I could say about male culture too but that wasn't the question. Could say I lot more but need to be up in six hours.

Most women here have men in their lives who they love.

But feminism is about women and girls. To ask why women doing feminism arent thinking about men's needs is missing the point.

@Maleficent

That post from @BackToLurk wasn't for you. It was addressed to @TransParentlyAnnoyed - who has a child who is a female who identifies as a man.

Back to Lurk is making the point that males (however they identify) are more a risk to everyone than women are, however they identify.

Well, obviously from a fully grown man. But I wasn't talking about the trans issue. More about the way that a lot of feminists act like they're the principle victims of male violence when in fact men are something like 4-5x more likely to be assaulted by a stranger. I remember a study done by the Australian Institute of Criminology and it found that men were 11.5x more likely to be murdered by a stranger. Usually it's something like 70-80% of homicide victims.

The usual response seems to be "oh, but who is doing the killing" but I don't really see it as the gotcha many seem to believe it is. It only works when you make sweeping generalisations and lump all men together. In reality, a Jewish guy worried about anti semitic violence doesn't have any influence over the type of men that are a risk to him. Same with homophobic or racist violence. I think I'd be equally worried about a son as I would a daughter.

Stating this will often result in you being called an MRA and to me it often veers a bit close to the way TRAs call people 'transphobic' for pointing out facts like humans can't change sex etc.

This wasn't really what I was planning on discussing but it's nevertheless how I feel. I don't think men have it particularly easy. They do the vast majority of shit jobs nobody else wants to do and we only focus on the CEOs etc. I say this as somebody who's driven dustcarts for three years and never seen a single female binman and who works up to 15 hours a day in heavy plant surrounded entirely by men. I'd wager there's more female execs than female refuse collectors.

There is no registry of trans people. All of them self-ID, no matter what documents they hold..

Same way I self-ID as disabled. I don't claim any benefits, but I definitely have irreparable nerve damage which badly affects my mobility.

I self-ID as straight, too. And non-binary. (As of yet, no one's come round to put a stamp on my arm confirming this, but give it time.)

So the question's ridiculous. Not only does it ignore that most cis women aren't transphobic, but self-ID is what we all do. All the time.

I'm not having anyone tell me I'm not disabled because I don't have the right paperwork. Or that my son isn't a trans guy because his identity doesn't (yet) match all his documents.

Most women know that men attack us where we want and the authorities will do nothing. Those poor girls attacked at that Army base had instructors walking in on them dressing and teenage boys invading their rooms. See also that awful case of the serial sex attacked who was given freedom.to rape and kill more women because misogyny, patriarchy and the massively underfunded justice system which keeps calling women.

There is no social contract, there are no safe public spaces, and attacking trans people is a massive distraction from confronting the reality of male violence. Pretending any man needs to transition to 'access' women is insulting our intelligence.

Fair enough. I did reference studies without linking them. Usually I would reference anything I was using to back up my argument but in this case I wasn't making any particularly important point that relied on the studies.

It was more a case of "I saw xyz mentioned and it made me think how would I react if that was actually true". It was more of a passing thought and I wasn't really interested in spending ages reading studies. I've spent way more of my Saturday night on this than I intended already.