Gender Dysphoria, Embodiment, and the Political Creation of the “Trans Child”

Did they? When was that? And so what?

Homosexuality is simply a sexuality. Imagining you are the opposite sex and a wish to damage one's healthy body parts implies a disconnection from one's body or distress of some kind that is invariably a symptom of various mental health issues.

You don't need to go to a doctor if you're gay, but apparently you do if you're labelled a "trans child".

What is the point of gender?

They are simply saying they have more in common with typical group behaviour.

So what? Why is it so important to you to divide people into arbitrary boxes like this? Why can't people just be individuals with individual interests and behaviours? This is just what most of us would call personality, but for you it seems important to classify people by personality type. Why? What is your aim in doing this?

It does because group membership is dependent on association. Let's not forget the group membership relevant here is common gendered behaviours not sex.

So your invented group is one of people who share "common gendered behaviours", but could be of either sex. Can you explain what the purpose is of such a grouping? Like most people, my interests and behaviours span those typical of both sexes. So for example, am I in the male (masculine?) group because I have an engineering degree or the female (feminine?) group because I like sewing?

What are the exact criteria for membership of the female/feminine or male/masculine groups?

You don't seem to understand the difference between averages & individuals.

Of course I understand the difference between averages and individuals. What I don't understand is why you seem to need to label people who stray from the average as somehow abnormal.

Commonalities bleurgh, what if I like custard creams, daytime TV, frank Sinatra and have urinary incontinence, does that make me an elderly person? Should I be allowed to live in a social services paid nursing home and get a lovely pension rather than go out to work?

You realise they used to rationalise homosexuality in exactly the same way? Oh wait….

Every accusation is a confession.

Sex & gender aren't the same thing.

Straw man. No one is suggesting trans people change sex. The clue is in the name 'trans gender'.

Stereotypes are expectations based on average differences. What do you think stereotypes are based on? Do you think someone just picked them at random?

Um, the point is trans people aren't saying all people in grouped sexes act a certain way or expect them to. They are simply saying they have more in common with typical group behaviour. Big difference.

The point you are missing is that lots of people have more in common with one group than another. That doesn't make them part of that group.

It does because group membership is dependent on association. Let's not forget the group membership relevant here is common gendered behaviours not sex.

The point about average differences is that they are averages. They don't apply to everyone.

Duh. And the point you are missing is the group membership relevant here is contingent on the association to average behaviours because that is what the group signifies. It makes no claim about all members of either sex complying.

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.

No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

You, along with the authors of this article, seem to want to take us back in time to when girls were told that they weren't good at things like maths and they should go back to being pretty little things who should just search for a husband and produce children. And, of course that men should all be macho and not show any emotions or feelings.

You don't seem to understand the difference between averages & individuals.

'I think of “transgender” as what I call a corralling term.

It corrals a wide variety of unrelated experiences—homosexuality, trauma, gender nonconformity, fetishism, body dissatisfaction, autism, obsessive thinking, childhood confusion—and herds them all through a single gate. Once inside that corral, they receive one explanation and one identity. The individual is branded with a label, and that label becomes the organizing principle of their life.

That, to me, is a profoundly political act.'

It is entirely sexist to suggest that if a person has a certain personality trait they must be one sex or the other, and so might be 'in the wrong body'. Not only sexist; its fucking absurd and ridiculous.

Feminists spent centuries trying to disentangle this.

(I mean, not individually, although sometimes it feels like it.)

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.
No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

One of us has missed the point of the first response. I thought the point being made was a boy who likes dolls etc is still a boy, he doesn't have to change his 'gender' because it's perfectly normal for a boy to like dolls etc.

It may not be typical of boys, but it is still quite normal, it doesn't mean he's a girl, no gender reassignment needed, just acceptance that he's a boy who likes to play with dolls. Gender Critical 101.

Again, your point is obscure.

So, according to you, there are masculine personality traits, feminine traits and personality traits that are shared by both sexes. Moreover, you believe that these personality traits are due to biology. As you responded to my examples of gender-stereotyped behaviour with a statement that there are shared personality traits between both sexes, I'm presuming you believe that twirling one's hair and standing in certain "masculine" ways are personality traits shared by both sexes. The bloke at reception and my female friend will be disappointed then, because they assumed that these behaviours made them appear to be the opposite sex!

Can you give any examples of what you believe are "masculine" and "feminine" personality traits then?

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.
No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

One of us has missed the point of the first response. I thought the point being made was a boy who likes dolls etc is still a boy, he doesn't have to change his 'gender' because it's perfectly normal for a boy to like dolls etc.

It may not be typical of boys, but it is still quite normal, it doesn't mean he's a girl, no gender reassignment needed, just acceptance that he's a boy who likes to play with dolls. Gender Critical 101.

You have just posted about stereotypes.

Average differences aren't stereotypes. Stereotypes are expectations.

Again, these are not reliable at all for categorising sex in humans or even defining ‘genders’ if gender identity exists. There is always going to be people who will have a mixture of these traits mentioned.

There doesn't have to be a reliable way to categorise humans when it comes to self declared identity because that is a personal subjective determination based on values & beliefs not facts or objective truths….just like it is for sex realists.

This is not evidence that someone who has a tick list of traits that are associated more with male people have a male gender identity or sex.

Again this is a personally subjective determination only an individual can decide for themselves based on how they understand the world as it applies to them. Its in no way saying one size fits all.

Of course, I would also say feminists have been fighting against such categorisations for decades. Isn’t this the very foundational belief of feminists critical of gender stereotypes?

But the point you are missing is trans people aren't saying gendered behavioural averages apply to all people in a group but only to themselves as individuals. They are simply saying they as an individual have more in common with average behaviours of one group more than the other & as such consider themselves as part of that group for this reason.

It's not sexist to state the fact that group commonalities exist & an individual might have more in common with one group despite not having other commonalties.

And your point - to the extent that a point can be discerned -is undermined by BIOLOGY in that the sexes share personality traits. Hormone & genetics can be 'funny' like that.

Your point - to the extent that a point can be discerned - is undermined by the fact that transwomen (i.e. biological men) have absolutely no feminine personality traits and transmen (i.e. biological women) have no masculine personality traits, to the extent that such "masculine" and "feminine" personality traits exist. What people who identify as trans tend to do, however, is act out stereotypical behaviours and gestures that they believe pertain to the opposite sex, like the bloke wearing a wig and a very padded bra who worked at reception at a restaurant I went to the other week, who was twirling the locks on his wig because he thinks 1950s gender stereotypes are what makes a woman, or my lapsed friend who has decided she is no longer a lesbian but a man and so positions her feet in certain ways when she stands because she thinks that makes her seem more manly and it also minimises her very obvious female hips.

This analysis fails to acknowledge evolved personality traits like femininity & masculinity that drive gender identification. But let's not let biology get in the way of pathologising anything you don't like.

And for the zillionth time, sex based stereotypes are based on sex.

And for the zillionth time, if what you say is true that trans people are associating with ‘an average’ gendered behaviour, why do they then undergo extreme body modification to replicate the ‘sex ‘ characteristics of the sex they don’t belong to.

You are trying to separate the two, yet sex remains the integral basis of the identity.

You keep speaking for trans people while also then telling us you are not transgender. The point remains that you cannot accurately describe what a transgender person is or isn’t experiencing but you have continued to do so for a long time now.

I didn’t ‘walk’ into anything. Your point is not relevant to what I was referring to.

Strawman.
The point you are spectacularly missing is trans people know average gendered behaviours because they possess them. For the zillionth time, sex & gender aren't the same thing.