Gender dysphoria is for life

Well am I glad I read the whole thread before posting!!

I had taken issue - more in sorrow than in anger😔with what I thought Seethlaw was saying about GD being a life-long condition, full stop.

Reading, on I see you say it is [potentially] life-long if not dealt with appropriately when it first manifests itself, you are not saying it is 'for life'.

Except that you kinda did, in the very thread title, so you can't be surprised that that's what a number of posters responded to, and I nearly did😏

The point that I was making in the post that I will not post now cos it would be missing the point..was that:
it's really important to assert the truth that it is entirely possible for a child to have really serious, extreme 'gender dysphoria' [if it exists, it is not an accepted term, but I'll use it as a shorthand] and to come to a place of healing and harmony with the reality of their body and its biological sex.

It seems to me that that place of balance and acceptance and body positivity is harder to achieve in an environment where PBs, social transitioning at school, hormones, surgery, flags, legislation, etc etc are on offer.

I'm sure the Child Me would have wanted to camp out overnight to be sure to be first in the queue for the PB trial. That said, I had parents who saw their job as parenting, not 'being an ally' so I think one of my mam's famous 'looks' would have nipped that plan of action in the bud
.My parents were as pragmatic as they were loving, and that's what got me through the period in my childhood where I secretly planned killing myself before puberty started -

I gradually accepted what they taught us: that you can't change what you are, but you can change who you are and how you live what you are. They meant in terms of education, social background, etc., but I applied it to my sex/gender confusion.

So here I am now. Not dysphoric at all

'Informed consent' for children about PBs has to include the information that even extreme cases of GD - like my 'I'd rather kill myself than grow up to be a woman' - can and do resolve themselves without any medical intervention.

Seethlaw is making the valuable point that 'those who think that transition will make dysphoria disappear, will discover that it doesn't work that way.'
which is another important piece of information needed to be considered before 'informed consent' is possible.

I'm glad I read on and didn't over-react to 'Gender dysphoria is for life' in the thread title, Seethlaw - you're such a thoughtful and considered commentator on here, you're like a regular down the pub who I'd stop and have a few* friendly words with 'Hiya, how are you? how's life treating you? Good? grand so! see you around. Take care. Bye now' before going to meet my pals.

We might even sit down and have a chat about being gender diverse, growing up different, somehow holding on to our sense of humour, and style, comparing notes about where our journeys diverged... maybe.

*'a few friendly words' in Ireland usually means a short paragraph of
'howya how's it going nice to see ya are ya doin well grand so sure lookit as long as you're winnin, what? grand so I'll see ya around g'luck now bye bye now bye bye bye bye...'
diminuendo as the speaker disappears😁

I've found your posts very interesting and valuable @Seethlaw

I count among my blessings, feeling happy in my own skin. Albeit there's a bit more of it, and me, than would be ideal - but that's by no means unusual in a busy middle aged desk worker.

As for the gender feelings, I've always struggled to fit in with Bloke Life and the sexist expectations underlying it. It never once made me feel I'd rather be a woman but I've often felt like I'm not really Manny Enough, iyswim.

Ironically discussions here with the majority female posters has clarified my thinking and given me some useful understanding and language to describe my thoughts and relationship to what can broadly described as masculine gender.

I think we've briefly chatted along these lines before, OP, but you've brought up the concept of 'true trans' - what do you mean by that? And what do you make of people - I would say this is the main push behind the current 'trans' movement - who say that gender dysphoria is not required to be transgender, it's 'medicalising' people for being their true selves?

Basically the (original?) concept that 'trans' means 'wanting to be the opposite sex' is in opposition with 'actually 'man' and 'woman' means feelings, not the sex of the body, and a man is any person (m or f) with feelings, and a woman is any person (m or f) with feelings, but different, therefore trans just means the feelings you have don't align with the feelings assigned to man/woman' - invoking this thing called a 'gender identity' which is unrelated to sex?

My feeling is that most people would absolutely accept that someone with gender dysphoria needs some kind of help and compassion.

But pushing the idea that all women are actually only women because of unspecified feelings - because that framing, removing any definition of 'woman', is the only way TRAs can say TW are literally women - just reveals totally sexist, homophobic and contradictory thinking.

I feel the muddling of the two approaches has actually caused more people to consider medical transitioning than persistent gender dysphoria.

Sorry, I'm aware that probably isn't very clear...

Can you give some examples?

The TiM I knew fell into OPs trap. Realities of the operations complications, his kids cutting him off all caused huge pain, the side eye.
That was magnified by suddenly "becoming" on paper, a female 60 year old jobbing consultant, and suddenly all the jobs vanished. The actual 60 year old female consultants in the sector were unshocked, but the misogyny came as a surprise to him it seemed.

What a thoughtful and reflective thread, thanks @Seethlaw .

I am very interested to read what you have to say about life pre-transition, 'passing', and what and when to tell other people about your history, because these topics are a big source of political tension.

TRAs typically argue that everyone should be allowed to conceal their sex, and that pre-transition life should be erased, to the extent that even the slightest reference to it is gravely offensive. I feel this approach is untenable:

It puts people under pressure to take medical steps to pass.

Some people will never pass – this makes them 'second class'.

It puts people under pressure to transition early and in haste, because pre-transition life is seen as a worthless waste of time

Erasing pre-transition life hurts the person's family and friends by rewriting their lives too.

Having a convention of 'concealment' of something which is usually obvious is infuriating to people who are being forced to lie.

And sometimes we must know someone's sex, for data integrity, medical safety, applying sex-based rights, safeguarding, and fairness in competition.

Is it feasible to move to a paradigm where trans people are 'out and proud' and pre-transition is just another part of their life with its own joys and sorrows? I note you say:

I didn't proceed with the transition until I felt absolutely certain that, "It'll be okay, because I'll have been true to myself until then, and those few years will have been better for it."

This means you never have to have a big reveal, never worry about passing, don't risk wrong medical treatment etc, and can talk freely about your past. The downside is being 'a transman, but not a man'. I am aware that 'outing' is a big deal, but really it shouldn't be, because there's nothing wrong with being trans.

Of course, people could continue to believe that TWAW and TMAM in some sense, but it would have been delinked from its legal and physical consequences, which are what are causing all the trouble.

Many mental illnesses are for life. I had body dysmorphia in my teens leading to anorexia and bullimia. I wouldn’t say it’s have gone away entirely but with treatment they don’t define my life anymore and I’m no longer anorexic.

It seems logical to me that enabling a person with gender dysphoria to transition isn’t going to cure it, in the same way allowing someone with body dysmorphia to keep starving is unlikely to have them reach a point where they say ‘ok, I’m thin enough now I’ll start eating again’ with no other support.

Nothing will ever be enough for somebody with this kind of mental illness without proper mental health intervention to change the thinking patterns which lead to somebody believing their body is wrong. Changing the body isn’t the solution, it’s about changing the thought processes to cure the mental illness.

Seethlaw

Thanks for this thread and being on so many of the others.

How do you feel about the work done by the trans lobby that has removed gender dysphoria as being part of being trans?

Those that I know that call themselves trans sexuals tell me that it is part of who they are and is why they don't support trans gender.

Certainly - like alcoholism, eating disorders and depression and many other conditions, gender dysphoria is something you "live with" rather than obtaining resolution. As with all of these, with the right support, that "living with" can be a vibrant and whole and well-lived life. I am convinced that affirmation of a fantasy is never going to be the right support. And although it never quite goes away, it can certainly get a lot less. I had in my teens twenties and thirties what would definitely be diagnosed as gender dysphoria today, but it was a long time ago and I didn't have the vocabulary or courage to talk about it and the pressures of needing to earn a living meant I didn't have the leisure to research or obsess over it, and when I started having a bit more leisure to think about it properly I discovered gender critical feminism and reframed my previous experiences within that understanding. The dysphoria hasn't quite gone away - I could yet choose to elect for a double mastectomy if I magically have the funds - but I would be under no illusion that such surgery would make me male. I have one body, it is female. I have no gender because that is sexist bollocks. But that's not a position that one can decide on rationality grounds to adopt, the heart feels what it feels and wisdom accretes as slowly as a stalagmite and cannot be sped up by effort of will or reading a convincing post on mumsnet.

Thanks Seethlaw

I’ve seen your posting I and I knew that was what you meant. Being around this stuff makes one paranoid (amongst other things!) and as you know there are so many bad faith activists out there that will twist anything into further ammunition to support “the trans train”, I wanted to share my perspective so there can be no accidental mis-interpretation!

Also, @Seethlaw, have you come across this? The article it discusses seems to concur with your thoughts:

(c&p from my post on another thread)

SEGM have a report on a recent Acta Paediatrica article (by a Swedish gender psychologist) which basically points out that "gender identity" and "gender incongruence" are undefined terms that shouldn't be used as a basis for medical intervention:

https://nitter.net/segm_ebm/status/2082853108648997110

https://segm.org/gender-identity-conceptual-clarity

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.70686

Thank you for clarifying that - my thoughts were similar to @Cantunseeit’s. I think the “gender dysphoria is for life” title is probably quite unintentionally misleading - especially as you are actually saying pretty much the opposite 😆

My first boyfriend started having gender dysphoria when we were about 20. He was absolutely convinced he was trans. He grew out of it.

I still see him sometimes and he definitely hasn't had dysphoria for decades. He's glad he didn't cut his penis off or take hormones.

Thanks OP for the thread and your much wider contribution. As a parent of a so called ROGD teen, my reaction to your OP was exactly the same as @NotBadConsidering

She’s already put much the point much more eloquently than I could so I won’t bang on about it.

I wonder if there are any other (mental) health conditions which are accompanied by so much social ideological context? I think this really muddies the waters and makes it impossible for people suffering from gender dysphoria to receive the most appropriate treatment for them. Not least that in the UK at least it doesn’t exist. Here it’s GAC all the way and a “conversion therapy” ban on the table to end the last vestiges of open discussion.

The idea that gender dysphoria is for life and can only be alleviated by medicalisation I fear ups the “most vulnerable” stakes and strengthens the school to clinic pipeline. “These children need urgent help to alleviate their distress” and as the only “help” on the table is medicalisation, that’s what they’re getting

Sorry - turns out I did go on about it! And I appreciate that you are not advocating medicalisation as the solution- it’s just when all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail (as it were). Medicalisation is the hammer here at a societal level

I wonder what the path through the current mess may be?

@Seethlaw thanks for opening this thread, it interests me because i did a lot of research before deciding my position as a GC person.

But i am still unsure what i think about gender dysphoria as a symptom or an actual disorder, i was wondering what you think of DR Hakeem analysis.

When older people experience dementia they may forget they have changed their body and become distressed by the absence of body parts. Obviously not something those poor children going through the puberty blockers trial will be thinking about. It rarely seems to get mentioned even by those discussing the health risks of transition. If it was such an integral part of someone's identity and they'd always known it you wouldnt expect that to happen.

I dont know how frequent this is, I need to do some more research, but it's likely to be a growing problem in care of the elderly.