Gender dysphoria is for life

I find actual gender dysphoria really interesting.
But always have in the back of my mind that two of the symptoms in children are

"A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender"
"A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one's assigned gender"

The idea that toys are even 'tied to a sex' in the first place is a symptom of a massive societal problem, if you ask me!

Some other symptoms in children are:

A strong dislike of one's sexual anatomy (that would raise red flags for me in younger children)

A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one's experienced gender - I don't understand what that means - surely 'experienced gender' is the one you are being brought up as?

I didn’t read it that at all. The context Seethlaw gives show concerns about being clocked or having to out yourself aren’t from fear of transphobia, but discomfort with being continually faced with the reality that you aren’t your preferred gender, you are trans.

I think there could well be something to those suggestions about your mother's longing or desire for a boy, and I suspect that many young children who experience dysphoria are picking up on this. Children do live in the shadow of their parents's psyche.

Did you ever watch the Channel 4 documentary 'La Petite Fille'? It featured a french boy who was being transitioned and presented as a girl, largely by his mother, I might add. In the documentary she was very overt and open about how desperately she had wanted a girl when she was pregnant with him; though I'm not sure she was even conscious of this obvious transference onto her child.

Well, it can't be because of the church, because I was happy being mistaken for a boy before we got into the church. So the church didn't do it.

My family, however, especially my mother... She didn't do it deliberately or openly, no. But she might very well have wished for it so bad (for me to be a boy, I mean) that I might have picked up on it subconsciously. I certainly filled a more stereotypically male role in our rather unconventional family (single mother, no fathers to the children) : emotional support to my mother, the "strong one" of the family both physically and emotionally, the one who would grow up to have a good job to support the family, and so on.

Hell, I've even contemplated the possibility that she was fully convinced during her pregnancy that I was a boy because she needed for me to be a boy for Reasons, that it influenced me right in utero. Or maybe she was so disappointed when I came out and I was a girl, that I picked up on that.

So the church, no, not possible. But a very early influence from my mother, possibly.

Out of interest, Seethlaw, have you actually had any gender affirming care?

I've had top surgery, and testosterone for 15 years. The psychiatric part was not specifically gender-affirming, more like me-affirming, in my various dimensions.

no one thinks transition is a total cure to gender dysphoria and certainly not a quick one

I guess we haven't met the same people then, because I've certainly met people like that.

As for the list: it's obviously built from my own experience, yes. Though to be clear: I don't feel much of all this anymore. The social anxiety, for example, is gone now.

One thing that will never go, however, is the sex dysmorphia. Unless someone finds a way to redraw my mental map, I will never stop wishing for male sex characteristics I can never have. Not that it's painful, merely annoying.

I may have misinterpreted what Seethlaw meant but he mentioned a conflict between revealing his trans status to a HCP or else risk being given inappropriate care for his body - If there were no concerns that outing yourself as trans would create a risk that you would be treated poorly, then there wouldn't be a conflict here, and obviously a concern that you will be treated poorly for being trans is a concern about transphobia. I would say actually perhaps many of the worries he lists about concerns about being "clocked" or what others are thinking of you are actually concerns about transphobia rather than direct effects of gender dysphoria. My gender dysphoria is, for me at least, all about how I experience my body, it's not really about how others perceive me. Even if I never ever passed I'd still be happier with my body this way. Admittedly my life does tend to go more smoothly if I'm not being clocked but again that's because of the way society treats and views trans people, not an inherent consequence of gender dysphoria.

Can you explain why you are blaming lack of confidence in medical care on transphobia?
Are you suggesting if society wasn’t transphobic, medics would treat you as your acquired gender (obviously unwise), or that you wouldn’t mind telling them you’re trans?

Out of interest, Seethlaw, have you actually had any gender affirming care? I ask because what you describe doesn't match my experience as a trans man very closely at all. Nor do I think you are accurately reflecting what trans people actually believe, no one thinks transition is a total cure to gender dysphoria and certainly not a quick one. For me however it has certainly been significantly relieved by GAC and now years on while I wouldn't say I never experience it any more, I certainly don't regularly experience gender dyphoria anymore and for the most part I'm very happy ith my body now (beyond a very normal middle aged wish that I was a bit younger and thinner which is quite distinct from actual dysphoria), and experience a level of comfort with myself I never imagined was possible before

I'd also suggest quite a number of the things on your list are not actually GD but rather the result of living in a transphobic society (worrying about whether you will receive proper medical care). And I can't say I devote a lot of time to worrying what other people are thinking of me, that's very much their own business, so I'm not convinced al of what you list is inevitable rather than - gently - just your own worries and preoccupations.

Where are your scientific details for the source of this drivel?

Depends whether they only got as far as sending out CVs and filling in forms, with a female name, or whether they were rejected after interview, when their sex/trans status would be obvious.

Gender dysphoria is a life-long condition, with or without transitioning.

Even after transition and in no particular order:

• Gender dysphoria is the unrelenting knowledge that under it all, despita everything you've done, your body is still and always will be the wrong sex.
• Gender dysphoria is scars on your body.
• Gender dysphoria is feeling guilty because you make your loved ones' life more complicated.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose which pre-transition memories you can share and/or having to carefully rewrite them in the opposite sex.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose between telling your new healthcare provider about your transition and your hormonal treatment, or risking them giving you inappropriate care.
• Gender dysphoria is a lifetime of medication and specialist appointments.
• Gender dysphoria is never being sure whether people truly support you or only humour you.
• Gender dysphoria is being clocked every once in a while and wondering how many people figured you out and you didn't notice.
• Gender dysphoria is wondering how and when you're going to explain to that new person you like that you weren't born the sex you present - and being anxious about how they are going to react.
• Gender dysphoria is never having the sex you really wish you had because even the best fake plumbing is nothing like the real one.
• Ironically, gender dysphoria can even be wishing you could dress or present in a more genderfluid manner, but anything that takes you closer to your birth sex presentation makes you feel worse, no matter how great you think it looks on other people of your desired sex.

And so forth and so on.

The idea that transition ends gender dysphoria is a harmful myth. Gender dysphoria is something that all trans people must learn to live with, whether they transition or not, and no matter at what age they transition. There's no avoiding it; there's no ending it. There's only managing it, carving a happy life for yourself around the good bits, and learning to handle the bad parts in a productive way.

I wish more trans people faced that reality, instead of insisting on living in a fantasy where going through the perfect transition and forcing people into behaving in the perfect manner would mean never having to suffer gender dysphoria ever again.

Oh Mash you're priceless!
Compare and contrast the careful, polite, thoughtful way Seethlaw and us have been interacting - not always agreeing with each other, sometimes challenging, sometimes downright disagreement.

And then, in blunders Masha with 'this drivel'!🙄

But we are the hate-fuelled transphobic bigots, right?😏

I find gender dysphoria incredibly sad for those who have it. I have a few trans friends and over the years have worked (as a care worker so only as someone giving personal care and support, not medically in anyway, trans women) and I have also worked with men who have cross dressed for kicks. I believe there is a difference. The difference for me is a TW losing her ability to wash her hair and being grateful I washed and styled it, taking into account she just wanted to feel pretty. A CD wanted to shock and humiliate me by showing me his collection of soiled lingerie and almost demanding I hand washed the blood, faeces and semen out of it. (I was 15 and did as I was told, I was given grubby marigold to wear whilst I did it. I found out years later he died of a sexually transmitted disease so I really should have been provided with proper gloves at a minimum)

I recently discovered a dr named John Ronald brown (I’m sure it was but I may be wrong!) who was illegally performing surgeries on the trans community, leaving terrible and dangerous defects on his patients. I think there has always been people out there willing to risk their lives to do all the can to become the person they’re convinced they should have been born.
What is sad though, when I discovered the case of this doctor that Google threw out a few suggestions of illegal surgery on trans patients.

I don’t believe that someone is born in the wrong body, I do believe people are utterly convinced they are. Same way I don’t believe in ghosts, yet I know people are absolutely sure they’re speaking to their dead ancestors.

I can be angry with men for trying to access women’s spaces and sports, especially men who know full bloody well that what they are doing is predatory. But I can’t get mad at TW wanting that, even if I’m not agreeing they should have that access. I just feel sad they are unhappy.

I know lots of transwomen wanting access to women’s spaces just want to live without drama. I feel terrible for them, but I disagree with giving them that access if one biological woman feels uncomfortable. Even one.

This board has taught me it’s ok to feel sad for trans people and give them respect and love, but also say, I think women should be put first. They have fought so hard, let’s not set them back.

@Seethlaw I have not encountered your posts before this so I don’t know much about you. Whatever your journey is, I wish you all the happiness on it. Life is easy for so few of us, if any, that additional problems outside regular ones we face can really mess up our lives. I hope you’re doing okay 💐

See I don’t think that person experienced misogyny after transitioning. They probably experienced transphobia.

That's interesting speculation!

So I wonder if the dysphoria is just one application of a more general sense of social worry to gender.

You know, the more I discuss "gender dysphoria", the more it becomes obvious to me that it means nothing because it means everything. It's related to sex dysmorphia, but also to personal preferences, but also to gender-related social anxiety... It's not A thing, it's a constellation of unrelated points. No wonder it's so much more diagnosed than it used to be!

So what does it mean to "truly support" someone, and how is that different from "humouring" them?

I guess it's the difference between telling someone, "I believe you can do this!" and telling them, "Yeah, sure, you can do it, aha" ? One is affirmative, the other is just not negative, I guess? And as you know, affirmation is a huge deal in trans circles, so much so that any non-affirmative reaction can be seen as a negative one.

So it's easy to end up with gender-related social anxiety when you're repeatedly told that anyone who doesn't actively affirm you, is in fact attacking you. And from there, you end up second-guessing every interaction you've had, which only feeds the anxiety some more.

Where are your scientific details for the source of this drivel?

Where are your scientific details for the source of this drivel?

Where are your scientific details for the source of this drivel?