Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)

..... and the really heartbreaking part of Schinegger's case is that his times were good enough for the men's team but they wouldn't let him on it out of prejudice.

He also came from a region that was known to have a cluster of that DSD. I think I even read that he had extended family with that same DSD, it was known about within the family and the community.

He definitely knew by 2009 and he still made a conscious and deliberate decision to take advantage of an unfair system. And then fought to retain his opportunities and I suggest, defend his reputation and decisions, in court.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/gordonfarquhar/2009/08/this_must_be_an_awful.html

It’s not Mumsnetters that have decided Semenya is male, it’s his chromosomes.

He was raised as male, was treated as male in school, wore boys uniform and was scouted precisely because he had a DSD and at that time men with the same DSD were allowed to compete in the female category. By doing so, he robbed women from his country of the opportunity to compete in his races.
In fact, three men took the medals in Rio 2016 800m, denying the opportunity for three women to win.

There is significant evidence indicating that Semenya is a cynical man using an error on his birth certificate to win money and fame.

Similarly with the Algerian boxer.

The main reason these particular men are singled out is that enough evidence exists to suggest they are taking all the advantages being male gives in normal life, while simultaneously stealing medals and money from women when competing.

Dear old mash, truly the gift that keeps on giving. Operation #letthemspeak

“They are mentally incapable of accepting that trans and intersex people exist. When looney bins were around they were the sort of people locked up (the transphobes) because they are mentally ill.”

This is DARVO in action.

Not only is it gaslighting female people who are having legitimate discussions around fair sport for female people. It is also abusive to tell those female people that they are mentally ill for having those discussions.

Why do posters resort to this abuse rather than provide evidence to counter points raised? I think we can see a pattern of behaviour that comes from not having anything other than emotionally manipulative tactics and reasoning to support their position.

They are mentally incapable of accepting that trans and intersex people exist. When looney bins were around they were the sort of people locked up (the transphobes) because they are mentally ill.

Just pasting this here in case Mash's post gets deleted, so any latecomers to the thread can see what the level of debate has descended to

Black women are not your gotcha to defend a cheating man @MashaPav

That ‘beauty standards’ argument has always been very weak and used to shame female people from raising awareness of the issues, hasn’t it?

It is frustrating to continue to see uninformed posters keep making it.

Every single one of them who does spectacularly misses the glaring misogyny of their choice to use that argument.

For anyone who still believes that a male athlete with the condition known as 5ARD, should ever have been competing in female categories, please read through this thread linked below (please do not comment on that thread, though start a new thread to discuss anything you find interesting)

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

Sorry, you mde a lot of good points and I didn't want it to get lost.

So many people that I know don't care as far as they are concerned is just sport, they don't realise just how much effort is put in to it and how much money is lost through this.
And the lost has a greater conseqeunce as the prize purse is so much less,
And there are cases in the USA coming up of girls/young women that are losing college places due to TIMs taking sponsership deals or having them removed during their courses.

Yes. I mentioned that though.

He took sponsorship and representational opportunities from female athletes. Both from his region, his country and internationally.

I imagine the list of female athletes he directly negatively impacted is very very large just from South Africa.

Thoughts with Lynsey Sharp and all the other women who’d be Olympic medalists if it wasn’t for this bloke.

you’re right - I try not to care about the perpetrators. I try to keep my focus on all the many, many women in this world screwed over by men and hope that one day justice will be served.

I am happy to post the quotes from those who have access to his medical evidence given at the CAS if you would like.

Having a vaginal opening does not mean he was ever a ‘female’ despite the doctor’s decision at the time. That is the only ‘female’ attribute that Semenya has.

He has testes that produce testosterone in male levels and that testosterone is processed by his body to viralise. That is the definition of being male for reproductive purposes.

Being male is not a matter of personal identification. It is a matter of material reality.

Look at it another way, do you support a male person with a DSD who knows that they are male and has a male pubertal advantage but who only claims to be female for sport’s purposes based on an error a doctor made at that athlete’s birth?

Do you also support a male athlete who has been abusive towards those female people that he has beaten because he could use a system where regulations were unfair to female athletes? He has told female athletes that they just are not good enough if they dared speak out. That is DARVO.

Just going to add to this that its not just the podium places that are taken from women but prize money as well,
A woman being dropped from the final (or last 8) can cost them not only the place/medal but a share of the total purse as well.

It also affects every elite athlete that has been pushed down a place.
And lets not forget about bonuses for records as well.

“I hope we can agree that your bigotry stems that from western standards she doesn’t fit your criteria of a “woman” as she is black as anyone with a brain has seen the language before.”

Since you have decided to use the racism accusation, how misogynistic is it to ignore the fact that by including just one male person with DSD where their body not only produces but processes androgen, potentially thousands of female athletes from that athlete’s country were negatively impacted. Every time a male athlete is awarded a podium place, this impacts at least one female athlete negatively.

Maybe one day a women’s sporting campaign group from South Africa will list every female athlete who lost not just podium places, but representational opportunities and sponsorship. Your argument about ‘female beauty standards’ is weak and meaningless. Semenya is not female and the negative impact of the OIC allowing him ever to compete as a female cause detriment to many female athletes.

“Yes language matters so mentally deficient people who can’t do a quick google search can understand that she isn’t male. Hope this helps to clear your confusion.”

“I hope we can agree that your bigotry stems that from western standards she doesn’t fit your criteria of a “woman” as she is black as anyone with a brain has seen the language before.”

Perhaps you need to do some further research before making your own wild accusations.

A male person with the DSD 5ARD does not have a body formed around the reproductive role of producing large gametes. Female people have a body formed around producing large gametes, regardless of whether those gametes are produced or not.

Semenya has admitted that he has testes in intervews since the CAS evidence was released so the public could see the medical evidence that was presented.

It was also known that Semenya’s body not only produces male levels of testosterone but also processes that testosterone and did so during puberty so he went through an androgen sensitive puberty. He went through a typical male virilised puberty.

Having a vagina, even one that is full length and not only a blind cavity with no depth, is not the defining feature of being a female person.

This is not just evidenced by the medical findings to the CAS but was already known because he had to suppress his testosterone to continue to compete in the female events in future Olympics. Hence, why he went to court.

No female athlete had to reduce their naturally produced testosterone to compete in a female event. Because their ‘naturally produced’ testosterone level is nothing like a male athlete who is competing at elite levels unless she, the female athlete, has a very serious health issue which would mean she is not likely competing at all.

No female athlete had to suppress their testosterone to compete.

That is a uniquely male athlete requirement.

We can for the purposes of fair sporting competition.

Caster Semenya has male levels of testosterone produced by undescended testes. No female reproductive system.
This produces very significant sporting advantage.

He has 5-ARD which is a disorder of sexual development that affects males.

"One common misconception is that Caster Semenya, the 800 metres champion, whose victory would prove a trigger for Coe’s rules rethink, simply has abnormally high levels of testosterone. But a Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling in 2019 delivers a stark truth: that Semenya’s condition of 46XY 5-alpha reductase deficiency means the South African has the circulating testosterone of a man. The clue is in the letters XY. "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2024/12/29/2024-showed-protecting-womens-sport-really-matters/

so we can’t just decide she is male

Yes we can. Based on facts and science. HTH.

He can think he's a wombat if it makes him happy

he's still male with a DSD only males can have

he's made a good living cheating women out of medals and his profile off the back of that has enabled him to leave the kind of life he could only dream of as a child

Semenya was born with a small penis and undescended testicles so he may have been mistaken for having a vulva at birth. But he has known he was male since at least puberty when his voice broke. He wore boy's school uniform.

And men with this DSD often father children.

Erik Schinegger is a famous example of an Olympic gold medal winner with 46 XY 5ARD who had an operation to descend his testicles and naturally father children. He's now a grandfather. Schinegger had the decency to give his medals back to the women who should have won them.

You have to wonder if Caster really thinks he is female or if that is just what he tells in interviews as he is pissed off he no longer is allowed to compete in the womens

Not everyone fits neatly into male or female. She clearly has some male and some female attributes. However, she was considered female at birth and still considers herself female so we can’t just decide she is male. Although whether she should be allowed to compete as a woman is an entirely different question.