Brave reporter undergoes inhumane sex test for sports. Brace yourselves.

Thank you for your posts here. For all of the many disagreeing with you, it really only takes one person speaking with compassion about the trans community to remind me that there are still kind and accepting people out there. Though I don’t think MN will ever be my go-to place to find them 😂

This is the second time someone has suggested that not holding gender critical views is the same as being a flat earther. And then other people keep telling me how open people are to challenge in this definitely-not-a-bubble.

The idea that the earth is flat doesn't stand up to critical examination. The idea that men can become women by force of will also doesn't stand up to critical examination. If you think it does - the answer is to respond cogently and intelligently to the examination with which you're presented here, and convince us.

If you don't want your views to be compared to believing the earth is flat, convince us that you're right. There's a reason that we don't look down on round-earthers. Their views stand up to critique.

Well, that was a runaround.

In the mean time, what a simple, straightforward, comparatively non-intrusive test we have here to identify the eligibility of the vast, vast majority of athletes into the female category. Then further steps can be taken to determine the status of anyone where necessary.

I quite like the idea of being in an INFAMOUS bubble. <preens>

I agree. It is a neutral fact. It is accurate language.

Well that's just silly, of course I am not going to report you.

Report away! I’d be very surprised if I’ve broken any community guidelines.

This is the second time someone has suggested that not holding gender critical views is the same as being a flat earther. And then other people keep telling me how open people are to challenge in this definitely-not-a-bubble.

I really AM going to go now though. I enjoyed discussing fairness in women’s sports with some posters (including some people that strongly disagreed with me but that I am still able to recognise as incredibly thoughtful and well informed people!) but some of you have sort of made a pile on gang now and it’s not very fair or interesting to me now you’ve stopped talking about sport.

You have called women cruel for the fun of it, and now bullies and using jibes because they won't accept your definitions.

You haven't had any posts reported and removed and nobody here has told you that you must call CS a male, they have explained why they call him one.

Sure. Nothing like the pattern at all.

No, really. Not even slightly.

(cough)

"Legally female" is a construct. Who knows what criteria they used? And frankly, who cares? If a court said legally, day was night, the earth would not speed up it's revolution to make the court correct.

Ha ha I genuinely SHOULD have gone - it’s hard in the midst of a lively discussion! I don’t think it’s fair to say it was like a door slam - I was very much like ‘sorry I have to go, thanks for engaging with me!’

I don’t think I have been like ‘and another thing’…. I’ve said I don’t know plenty of times!

And gently, mumsnet is quite famously a bubble on gender issues! Like, you must all know that… it’s an INFAMOUS bubble!

We welcome challenges to our opinions - at least, I do. Those challenges have to be rational, evidenced, consistent, lawful, and stand up to challenges (as our opinions are and do.)

If you think the inability of any counter-argument to live up to these reasonable standards makes this a bubble, that's on you.

Any forum where people are allowed to express a full range of opinions will naturally agree with the majority of opinions on here; it's not a coincidence that this open forum largely falls on the GC side; it's inevitable. It's the sites where GC opinions are banned that are the bubbles.

It's strange I know a lot of real LGBT+ people who take part in self-deprecating humour, and would laugh at stuff like that.

Being offended on the behalf of someone else isn't going to cut it.

If somebody opined that the earth is flat and was told by a group of people that they are mistaken, is the group automatically a "bubble"?

I don't know about anyone else here but my idea of 'fun' isn't calling a man a man. And I see that curious modern view of bullying coming from Deadlifter - that people you don't know and never will who are talking about your public achievements (or lack of) are 'bullying'. No, they - we - are not, but we do value the truth in this ridiculous narcissistic world and some of us are stubbornly hanging on to it.

When Semenya passed through the not-very-gentle hands of the Court of Arbitration in Sport we read about his condition as the court's findings are made public. He's male & has a male-specific condition. I'd recommend Deadlifter read it.

Something I've noticed before: "I must go now" and the person then posting on, often for more than an hour. In this case the announcement was at 18:37, and there was a post from the same person at 19:44 (and counting).

Reminds me of people who slam the door on the way out, then open it again to say "ander NOTHER thing...."

Do you think the IAAF was wrong? Why do you think they decided she was legally female?

Well you kept up the pretence of reasonableness long enough but bluntly you privilege men feelings over women's reality

maybe you should think about that

I am very happy to be challenged but I’m just pointing out it’s ONLY me being challenged and that’s totally fine, but you must see it’s a bit of a bubble in here!!

Indeed and we're very well that correctly sexing athletes makes it (rightly) very hard for anyone arguing that men should be in women's sports even if they are men with a DSD

that's why CS should be correctly sexed

I think I’ve engaged in good faith, but you can’t help yourselves with the little deadname jibe there can you. This is why people come and engage on something like fairness in sport, and then leave with the impression that mumsnet is a transphobic bubble.

The name can change, and even the decision could change, but surely even them finding her a woman once suggests things are a bit more complex than she’s just definitely straightforwardly a man.

edit: meant to reply to your post @PaperWalkAndTalk

Calling Semenya a man has nothing to do with fun or cruelty; it it's a neutral fact.

Staying open-minded is admirable up to the point there is an objective answer based on evidence and reason. Staying neutral beyond that point is either stupidity (can't be helped), ignorance (can be remedied) or cowardice (a bit contemptible).

When important decisions or consequences flow from the point in question (especially if those consequences are for other people), staying neutral in the face of objective fact will actively do harm.

The outright ban on genetic males competing in women's events didn't come from intersex individuals, it came from the recent spate of fully biological men (with no DSD) competing in women's events. The situation got so ridiculous that they've implemented a full ban.

It's not possible to discuss the problems of men competing in women's sport if you are not allowed to say that those men are men