Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

This particular part of the 2021 Census has been downgraded in statistical terms. It’s very embarrassing for ONS as it was shown the question was misunderstood by a lot of respondents.

It lead to the Office for Statistical Regulation (OSR) issuing guidance on methodology for ONS and anyone conducting survey’s.

Ah I see. Yeah I guess I don’t see the problem with providing a fourth space, as long as it isn’t done by sacrificing women’s spaces…

😝 JFC.

I can’t keep up. Literally can’t. I’m hoping it will implode but it seems less and less likely.

So bisexual people are straight? Or trans?

Well of course we are, by their belief system.

That's how we know it's bollocks - not because we are "cis" and think that everyone else is really too, but because we realise far more than they do that not fealling really aligned to gender expectations evdn if sometimes you socially feel pressured to do so is just normal humanity!

I’m not surprised that NB is the biggest category. It takes zero effort, you don’t have to try to look like the opposite sex or behave in a certain way. You just have to say you are it. I had a NB student who was a married woman (married to a man), with long hair, large breasts, totally indistinguishable from any other woman, but insisted on a NB identity and they/them pronouns. So tedious.

No, I disagree.
They accept them for everyone else, but they think they're somehow different.

If they accepted that being male or female said absolutely nothing about you as a person then they'd be campaigning against the whole notion of gender identity.

The term non-binary in relation to gender identity emerged in the mid-1990s to early 2000s, growing out of 1980s and 1990s queer zine culture where the related term genderqueer was first popularized. While the general adjective "non-binary" has older roots in mathematics and science (appearing in text by 1941), its specific application to gender identities outside of man and woman gained traction through activists and academic literature around the turn of the 21st century.

I actually didn't think non-binary went this far back. I certainly didn't even hear of it until around 2018 at the earliest myself, and I'm very much LGBTQ (no, not all of them 😅)

Some days I find it all interesting (the history), other times I spend most of my time rubbing my temples. Someone I know is apparently Fae/Faer and I'm really confused by that one.

Edited for epic autocorrect fail.

That would definitely make GC people trans?

So most ‘trans’-categorised people are those who reject gendered stereotypes.

Goodness. That almost suggests there is a category problem going on. WHO KNEW?

If the trans athletes are anything to go by, you'd need two groups: those running while wearing make up and those running without it. 😉

Yes but in addition to the usual male and female facilities.

Then special people could chose between the slightly less safe enclosed space or the space provided for people of their sex.

That sounds right.

Except that, as @Keeptoiletssafe would tell us, the design of “gender neutral” toilets/changing rooms/etc must (for privacy etc) be the type that includes floor-to-ceiling walls and doors. And floor-to-ceiling walls and doors - in public spaces - are the least safe in terms of people collapsing and not being seen until it’s too late, women (and girls and boys) being pushed inside and raped and not being seen or heard, drug use, ease of camera installation etc, etc. Not to mention they’re harder to keep clean than cubicles with floor gaps.

So, in fact, we probably don’t want more “gender neutral” spaces, whatever the number of people identifying as NB might be.

Exactly. And in order for some women to be able to "opt out" of the oppression of the female sex, there would have to be laws enacted specifically to cover this undefinable "non-binariness."

And my guess would be that in order to define it, we would first have to curtail some of women's (and probably men's) rights to get to the point where "non-binary" would make sense, would work in reality, day-to-day, and would hold up to a legal challenge.

So, that won't happen. Too much like hard work.

The easiest way to make this happen is to never define it and build a law around flimsy foundations, tack it onto some other law that vaguely resembles the one you want (force-teaming, anyone?), put a rubber stamp on it, walk away, and hope for the best. I'm sure there are a lot of activists who would be perfectly happy with that!

Can that statistic not be used as evidence that we need more gender neutral spaces as obviously NBs can't use either the Ladies or the Mens loo.

It would also give those poor transwomen a safe space to pee.

Boston Marathon, I think, last year? This year, in April?

I can't hear this spoken aloud because I'm not on X but the script suggests that it would make a wonderful sound track to one of those stop-motion Creature Comforts animations that Aardman did. I'm not sure what animals they both would be though.😁

No. You have misunderstood.

We don't think wonan is a gender identity. We think it's a physical sex.

Sure we could create a whole new name for "the half of humanity we used to call women and girls but now don't becsuse some sexist people decided woman and girl should mean the people of either sex who embrace the sexist gender concepts attached to the female sex" , and then fight to get the history of the female sex, the cultural identity of the female sex across different cultures and classes and times, and the laws and rights of the female sex all reassigned to the new nane, but why the fuck should we? We were here first. Genderists colonised us, not the other very round.

And even if we did, do you really think sexism follows the word woman and not the female body? Are you really that naive?

Do you think Feminism just got it wrong, and instead of fighting for women's rights, autonomy, safety and humanity all we gave ever needed to do is say "yeah but we aren't women so neerh" and all the sexism and misogyny and marginalisation and exploitation and abuse we face would have just gone poof away in a cloud of linguistics????

Wow, if only Feminists had realised all they needed to do was tell men "actually no I don't see myself like that" and they'd have gone "oh fair enough, here's equality then. We thought you liked the sexism"

It's real for them if they believe it. It will then of course affect how they act. I am glad that you agree that there is no reason to decide that people's beliefs about gender are objectively true.

"if you can’t look around at the world around you and see gender conformity in action then you ain’t really looking. And the reason it persists is because people are not thinking about it at any depth"

Who on earth has said they don't see any gender conformity? Of course many many people conform to gendered expectations at various times for various reasons. I sometimes conform myself, because I'm tired of fighting, or I just want a quiet life and not to stand out, face negative consequences etc etc.

Non-binary as an identity does nothing to challenge gender conformity - as already explained, it reinforces it totally. Non-binary can only exist if conformity is expected of everyone else.

When it comes to mental images of one’s self and what being a conscious being means - if lots of people think they have a gender identity- ie they have an image of self whereby they align with the gendered expectations based on their sec how can you say it’s not real? I stated explicitly that it wasn’t objectively measurable yet you state it’s not objective as a criticism of what I write ?

is any of this real? Do we exist ? Are you all figments of my mind ? Does the mind exist ?

if you can’t look around at the world around you and see gender conformity in action then you ain’t really looking. And the reason it persists is because people are not thinking about it at any depth

the belief may be wrong but that doesn’t mean it isn’t very real to the people who have it

People can believe they have a gender identity, as long as that doesn't impact on me at all in any way. In the same way that they can believe in astrology or religion or any other belief system.

"So many women are implicitly accepting it, “boys will be boys” as they raise their kids , men in particular feel that masculinity is an important part of them.

Women who have thought hard about it ( usually because of abuse of some form ) with lots of self reflection recognise it for what it is and so reject it or none binary themselves"

I genuinely don't know where to start with this! A belief being popular doesn't make it objectively true, or a valuable belief system. People should be able to say that beliefs like "boys will be boys" are harmful to both men and women, and push back against them without being criticised for upsetting anyone who believes in that concept.

I don't think it needs a huge amount of thought or deep reflection or abuse(!) to recognise the nonsense and unfairness of systems of gender and to reject them. Women and girls often come to that conclusion very naturally for themselves when they identify a gender based unfairness and push against it.

People have all sorts of ideas about their own identity, but I can't think of any situations where it's helpful to classify that formally or where it should be the state's concern.

I think you can compare it to religion. People have a variety of opinions and some people have a strong sense of religious identity. They are protected from discrimination on the basis of their beliefs, but the state doesn't register people's religion.

In comparison sex is more like age. You have no control over it and it affects you regardless of whether you identify as being 15 or 50.

I believe that some people truly do have gender identity- and I begin to think it’s actually the default.

identity is to my way of thinking your internal self image and how you align that with others on society

So many women are implicitly accepting it, “boys will be boys” as they raise their kids , men in particular feel that masculinity is an important part of them.

Women who have thought hard about it ( usually because of abuse of some form ) with lots of self reflection recognise it for what it is and so reject it or none binary themselves

( I will write the caveat that I know ( think anyway ) that gender is a response to society so the charactertiacs of that changes with time, that it’s unmeasurable objectively and you can’t base laws around it before we get distracted )

I don't believe we have genders, we have sexes

Because it’s silly genderist jargon founded in sexism and misogyny.