Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Yes, trans people exist.

Yes, we have a right to not be discriminated against because we are trans.

But no, nobody owes us the privilege of being interacted with as the opposite sex. People making the effort to go against what comes naturally to them should not be treated as a given, but should be respected as the courtesy that it is.

Also: we are not victims of anything just because we are trans, and we shouldn't act like it.

The problem with everyone's trans/nb orgin story is thats its a script.

"I feel more comfortable with this identity, therefore we have to ignore sex as a society. Don't question it because you arent deep enough to understand"

They convince themselves that ignoring sex benefits girls, but the only people it benefits are abusive men. And drug companies.

I find it quite depressing that even on here where a small number of trans people honestly share their accounts of who they are and engage in questions because it matters that people understand, we still get trolls trying to paint trans people as dishonest and hateful.

Are we allowed to suggest to MN that these people shouldn't be able to post in a way that perpetuates negative stereotypes of minorities?

TRA has redefined a fantasy into identity.

Telling girls and boys that their sex is wrong or irrelevant is dangerous because sex is important for safeguarding, health and a whole range of issues.

Having a deep feeling about your own gender identity when that 'identity' has been taught in school and promoted widely is really just being a victim of marketing. Its not real when people follow a script that gives them the outcome they want.

If that outcome is attention, it wouldnt be that serious - children and adults alike have always behaved in a way they know will get them attention even if its negative.

But if the outcome is girls not understanding the importance of sex, taking drugs or having unnecessary surgery it is wrong. And the adults who refuse to acknowledge this are dangerous.

As you well know, none of this is true.

It just comes down to this. No one can change sex. No women should be bullied into giving up their single sex spaces to men. 'Affirmation' is fundamentally a lie and benefits no one.

If we just concentrated on everyone expressing themselves how they want, regardless of their sex, all of this could have been avoided.

Well a lot of people are in denial about being nb or don't want to identify that way. Shame, but absolutely their choice.

I gave my son the 'not necessarily' speech when he came out. I said there were many ways of being a woman and told him how I felt. He replied: sounds like you're non-binary.

I disagreed (while accepting him, because not abusive parent who lives through her child, demands gratitude and refuses to learn new stuff) and carried on.

But over several years, I have come (quite reluctantly) to terms with being nb. I remembered the stress and bewilderment I felt during puberty, and how I'd always felt I wasn't either male or female.

When I was younger, my family assumed I was gay (because stereotyping) and would call me a tomboy - such a hideous put-down of a word, always meaning 'not good enough to be either'.

I've been a feminist since early childhood as a result, furious at how differently girls were treated and the limits put on my freedom. Taught the boy (in fact all my boys) about feminism and respect too.

I know that one day I'll fully accept myself and live as nb, but for the moment it's fine. I thought I'd be unhappy using 'them/they' pronouns, but my eldest goes out with someone nb and I have no issue with remembering to use t⁸hem. So I'll see.

It's so hard to explain but switching from 'Ms' to 'Mx' on many online sites gave me a feeling of profound peace. I know now that accepting myself, fully, is something I will need to do in the future.

Anyway, trans people are just trans. Some are nb masc or femme, others have their own words. Trans people don't owe the world an explanation for being trans - the world owes them acceptance of difference.

Being trans, nb and (for example) nb masc are under the same umbrella for a reason. My son is nb masc but calls himself trans. Many, many other trans men are not nb.

Reading nb and trans people's own words is the way to go, if you want to understand them.

One last thing: just because some people on here feel gender neutral but reject the idea of nb/trans, does not mean nb/trans people don't exist, are wrong or need more information.

Coming out is a long, incredibly difficult process and living openly as trans/nb is actively dangerous. No one would be trans/nb unless it meant everything to them, and profoundly healed them - enabling them to get on with their lives. Trans/nb isn't a lifestyle, it's who someone is.

There are trans people who refuse to accept the experiences of other transgender people

they insist that the only way to live is to force to the world to accept you as the opposite sex, to medicalise anyone who feels that they are transgender. They can’t accept that it is possible to come to terms with the mind body disconnect and they can’t accept that for most of history - before the drugs and surgery - that’s exactly what people did.

they can’t accept that makes you a happier healthier person. Instead they scream and rage and shout - especially the male bodied ones. On line and off

Despite shouting over actual trans and nb people and refusing to accept their own accounts of who they are.

Do you mean like your interactions or lack of interaction with @Seethlaw ? You don't appear to accept their own account of who they are. Why is that?

Gosh, thanks!

I know how sincerely you mean that and am so pleased.

Some people are trans, some people spend their entire online lives being weirdly furious about trans people - denying their individuality, vilifying them and trying to convince themselves they're experts in being trans.

Despite having zero qualifications (reading other people's deeply odd conspiracy theories and feverishly suggesting their own doesn't count, sorry).

Despite shouting over actual trans and nb people and refusing to accept their own accounts of who they are.

Happy to provide a little contrast to your life, youre welcome 😁

the question is “what does it really mean to be trans and how should society respond to such ?

yes some people always think they have something that means they are a boy in a girls body. Yes some express this as soon as they can talk

so what? That doesn’t mean that medically or criminally or athletically they don’t act according to their body type rather than their identity

therefore in matters of medical, criminal or athletic natures they need to be treated in society as their body type not their identity

It means some people are trans, and no one can change that.

It isn't a choice, cosplay or lifestyle. Some people are trans.

I suggest putting on 'Born This Way' and listening to the lyrics.

So the 'T' has come to dominate LGBT. And now 'non-binary' has come to dominate T.

At this rate a movement that was originally about encouraging gay people not to be ashamed of their sexual orientation is going to end up dominated by men who are proud of being straight 🤷

If that is the case then i imagine it must be down to the fact that most people recognise that you cannot change sex, but because they still want to signal their unique, special personality and 'non-conformity' then saying 'Non -binary' is simply less of a stretch.

But then inexplicably (and very immaturely) think that any man who says he's a good man (or woman, in this case) is 100% pure of heart and would not even dream of lying to access spaces he isn't meant to go.

How would he even know whether or not he is meant to go there if the relevant factor is gender, but nobody can explain what it is?

Of all the 'trans' identification, non-binary strikes me as particularly stupid.

Do those whe identify as 'non-binary' believe that those who don't align with every single stereotype out there? Because I don't know a single person who does. Everyone is 'non-binary' when it comes to gender.

Are you not just elevating yourself above others as having some special kind of inner wisdom and superior mystical knowledge? You can't even define what it is you think you are, you refuse to speak in anything other but hushed, reverential thought terminating cliches - but I think you basically agree that you cannot tell by looking. But then inexplicably (and very immaturely) think that any man who says he's a good man (or woman, in this case) is 100% pure of heart and would not even dream of lying to access spaces he isn't meant to go.

How does that purity of heart nonsense work with Wayne Couzens and Catholic Priest and the rest of them? How did Sarah Everard not know? How did all those children not realise? How were battered and murdered women so thick as to not see their beau was evil?

Or the many men whose shortness is at odds with their inner tallness so they identify as their actual height of a few inches taller than their mere physical height whenever they have to state their heigh.

Or having hairy legs but seeing yourself as the sort of person who doesn't have hairy legs. So when you shave, it's just correcting nature's little error in the leg hair dept.

So if you're a woman but think of yourself as nonbinary, is that a bit like being British but thinking of yourself as stateless?

It's all just pretence isn't it? Surely this is just something for teenage navel gazing, not for actual adults.

There are thousands of things that are true about a person that aren't anything to do with 'their identity' - what they're like - and don't need to be.

It's because the person themselves - probably internalised messages from a sexist society - thinks that being female and having xyz other characteristics are irretrievably bound together. They're not.

I think it's like being technically British, but not feeling that that has anything to do with your identity.

Trans people are just trans.

To understand that statement 'trans' must be defined.

Many non-binary people describe themselves as trans, but from what you say, non-binary could just mean

carrying the experience of being a woman while never thinking of myself as one.

which is a very common experience, probably shared by many of the regular posters on this board. This might cause greater or lesser amounts of distress, but the feeling of not identifying with a gender is very normal. Whether or not this makes you feel like an outsider will be heavily influenced by your environment.

I said the majority, not all.

Gosh, innate characteristics like biological sex you mean? Yes, it is important to recognise what is innate and consequential in the world outside our own minds, and what only seems consequential inside out own heads.

And yes, it is so important to respect that people of different sexes face different social expectations and challenges and frustrations (and worse), and therefore sex-based rights, resources and protections really matter.

It's great to have your support here ❤