Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

But nobody has an 'innate' feeling of their sex. Or at least, if they did, there would be absolutely no way whatsoever of knowing, because we cannot experience outside of our own experience.

I think that may actually be the problem: all those NBs and others don't actually understand what it's like to be trans, and so think what they feel is similar when it's really, really not.

You see it happening all the time with other conditions:

• "Oh, I think I'm depressed!" when they are sad.
• "Oh, I think I'm autistic!" when they have a quirk or two.
• "Oh, I think I've got ADHD!" when they are late once in a while.

The criteria for self-diagnosing with being trans have expanded so much, they now include pretty much all of humanity.

• "You don't like the limitations imposed on you by your sex? You're trans!"
• "You enjoy adding elements of the opposite sex's gender presentation to your own presentation? You're trans!"

But that's not what being trans was originally about, not even close. Except the original trans people have been shut out into just one possible expression of being trans, and "trans" has lost all meaning - which is stupid, because you need clear definitions when you're asking for rights and privileges, but heh, logic is not TRAs' forte.

I'm talking more about potential trolls saying they are trans and speaking for their community as if all trans people are dishonest, rude and hateful and won't accept same-sex attracted people, anyone who's questioning etc, or keep changing what they say "trans" is. I know they aren't but there seems to be a concerted effort from some quarters to paint that picture... I'd just be wary.

Obviously we have some visitors that seem to use the same usernames elsewhere and are like this everywhere but it's then easy for people with too much time on their hands to copy them.

Looking forward to the answer

And if everyone is technically non binary who has not declared an opposite sex identity or the rare few who claim to have a gender identity, what does that mean to society ?

@WrongKindOfFeminist , exactly.

And my body will remain sexed if I were asleep, under anaesthetic, without a 100% functioning brain due to injury or illness, or in a coma. And once I am dead my corpse will still have a sex.

Huh. Me, I guess? I care to be seen as one sex, so I suppose that makes me binary?

And "transitioning", by definition, is a binary-based action, since you transition from one sex-based gender presentation to the other.

Which only goes to show how nonsensical this whole trans umbrella is, if binary trans and NBs are all gathered under it.

Even Elle Woods, with her fabulous pink and her law degree. Even fucking Barbie, who was allowed to have both an enormous fashion wardrobe and a science degree.

I have given myself an eyeball injury with all the rolling.

Everyone who has ever lived is “non binary”..

Yes, exactly. Most people don’t subscribe to this ideology, stop co-opting me into your personal worldview.

Coming out is a long, incredibly difficult process and living openly as trans/nb is actively dangerous. No one would be trans/nb unless it meant everything to them, and profoundly healed them

Applying this to 'non-binary' is just nonsense though.

How is it 'actively dangerous' to not embrace every single sex stereotype? That's true of pretty much everyone's experience. It's not an 'actively dangerous' situation.

Oh sweetheart.

By your faith, I am non binary. Most of the women on this board are.

NB is simply Genderism realising too late that Feminists were right and gender is horribly horribly sexist. But you are in too deep to go back, so instead of just agreeing that "men" and "woman" are physical sexes that we should not be erroneously describing mental identiies to, you have made Identifies As A Man and Identifies As A Woman into inviolate truths of your faith so you had to create a new label for the reality that most of humanity doesn't line up to your sexist identity boxes at all.

Eventually you will realise what you actually need is NB AFAB and NB AMAB (which in fact I already see sometimes in Genderist circles) and we get broadly back to whetre we shoukd have been all along in seeing people outside sexist stereotypes, albeit with the slight annoyance that Genderists in their arrogant wrongheadesness totally trashed women's legal rights and protections along the way 🤬

yes - I absolutely believe it when someone demonstrates their sexism. Why wouldn't I?

Part of the reason I question things is because I care a lot about wanting to be clear and honest, on their terms, with other people. If I tell you I'm a woman, I want to make sure you don't think I'm saying I've got a particular gender identity, because that wouldn't be true. So it's helpful to us both if we understand the terms we are using.
This opportunity is taken away from me when I'm shouted down that words' meanings are irrelevant.

Tl;dr:

It's not that I don't believe trans people are who they say they are, it's that I know I am not who they say I am.

I absolutely believe many trans people are who they say they are. I believe they truly feel what they say they feel.

I just think they are just using the wrong words to label and descrbe it.

Also

Despite shouting over actual trans and nb people and refusing to accept their own accounts of who they are.

Oh the stupid, tragic irony of this statement! I don't know whether to laugh at you or cry for you, because it sums up the whole stupid stupid TRA movement.

Trans identies, at least as TRAs currently construct them, are entirely based on refusing to accept people's accounts of who they are!

It is trans people, including the late entry NBs like yourself, and the "cis"-identifying Genderists who share their beliefs, who believe they "know" how other people of their own and the opposite sex all feel. They have to believe this in order to "know" that trans people feel different!

It is trans people who shout over everyone else saying we "must" identify as "cis", we "must" feel like men or women in a metaphysical way beyong our bodies, because that is what they think we are.

In fact it is only trans people and Genderists that have this belief that being a sex is actually a feeling, an identity, a "who you are", at all!

And when we try to say, and even go as far as court simply to be allowed to say "uh no, I don't feel like or identlfy as a man or a woman because of mind, I just am that sex physically and I live with the consequences that come with that, physical and social, good and bad", it is trans people and Genderists who protest, who scream into loudhailers, who demand events are cancelled, who refuse to follow laws, in their utter conviction that their right demand we behave as if we identify in a way that fits their self image must override ours to say no.

This whole mess exists because trans people wanted the words that describe other people's physical reality to label their inner mental state, and in doing so started to make statements about other people's inner mental state as well to justify their demands.

If they'd just told us who they were using new words and explained what those words meant for them instead of using old words and insisting the new meanings now apply to everyone, none of this mess would have ever started!

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Please, explain to me how a male bodied trans women and me, who sees herself simply as a person of female body which was what "woman" used to mean, are both "women" without telling me who I am as a woman mentally simply to accomodate a male person within the bounds of women.

Well a lot of people are in denial about being nb or don't want to identify that way. Shame, but absolutely their choice.

As soon as I started to question it I was essentially told to shut up by trans people (or those saying they were trans). They would do or say anything to avoid saying clearly what they thought a woman/man was, what the difference was, so I, and many other people including kids and neurodiverse people, are left to simply guess. And live in fear of the vitriol if it turns out you've guessed wrong.

I don't understand the notion that someone needs to be 'good' to be a boy or girl. Another thing I'll be left to guess about.

Well a lot of people are in denial about being nb or don't want to identify that way. Shame, but absolutely their choice.

Au contraire, I think we completely own our non-gendered identities. We just think this is normal and that it isn't worthy of comment.

When I was younger, my family assumed I was gay (because stereotyping) and would call me a tomboy - such a hideous put-down of a word, always meaning 'not good enough to be either'.

It does sound as though your perception that you are different might be a result of your upbringing, but as an adult you should be able to understand that your family's perceptions were just plain old sexist.

I know that one day I'll fully accept myself and live as nb

Am intrigued to know what this would involve.

It's so hard to explain but switching from 'Ms' to 'Mx' on many online sites gave me a feeling of profound peace. I know now that accepting myself, fully, is something I will need to do in the future.

It sounds as though there are many reasons for this, and it is good that you feel at peace, but it's not clear how this is relevant to anyone else.

Nobody has said that you can't be trans, nb or whatever.

What people are saying is that you can't change sex. and you can't/.shouldn't try and take away other people's rights.

As you so lightly touched on in your waffle, is that no-one knows what trans/nb is.
Stonewall et al, have done such a good job (sarcasm) that the words are meaningless.

But here is the short version be what you like, just don't expect others to give up their rights or expect them to consent to your wants.

Also stop labeling people you don't like being mislabelled. So stop trying to force your labels on to others.

You really don't understand at all do you?

I'm very sad for you.

This is about female people. The only issue with people who claim to be the opposite sex is that they are not the opposite sex, so pretending that they are requires society and the law to remove protections from and understanding of the consequences we (female people) face because of our sex, make it illegal or taboo to mention the reality of our sex, and require us to perform obsequiesence to the pretence that we are mentally the same as a subset of male people because this is what those male people happen to believe of us.

You are obsessed with trans people, to the degree you have become unable to see what you are saying about and doing to female people including yourself when you champion these beliefs.

You are the one who believes we need to label people by their personalities and their sexist prejudices. Not me. I just want recognition of and fair treatment for the half of humanity who are female.

Sex is so important for safeguarding. To have an ideology that claims that sex is irrelevant is nothing but dangerous.

When people describe themselves as not feeling male or female or a mixture of both. They aren't describing sex, they are describing personality or social expectations.

Believe in your own personality, but don't expect anyone else to care, and certainly don't compromise safeguarding for it.

And some people are born female. And no one can change that.

But in pretending that can be changed, or in pretending it doesn't matter, or in pretending that the long history of marginalisation, abuse abd exploitation of female people wasn't because of our bodies but because we "identified" as women, or in pretending that a feeling in someone's head can make them entirely interchangeable with people of the opposite sex, trans people, whether born that way or not, are creating a sexist and harmful culture for female people.

I suggest reading the history of the world, or some newspapers, or even just the MN relationships boards, and thinking about all female people rather than just trans people for once.

But no, nobody owes us the privilege of being interacted with as the opposite sex.

That's actually a really good way of putting what some trans people want.
As a female person with no gender identity, in day-to-day life I don't want to be interacted with "as" female, but not "as" male either. I would generally like to be interacted with as if my body wasn't relevant.

In the situations where biological sex is relevant - medical treatment, risk assessment, sports etc - then I think it's important to be treated with regards to reality. This can be sensitively, if someone is one of the trans people that agrees that e.g. men are male, women are female (vs those that think body parts are irrelevant) but shouldn't be ignored.

You can’t generalise a negative image of transgender people -mumsnet will remove such posts if requested.

you can however point out that transgender people do do bad things - referring to specific cases, observing prison data , reporting your own observations of online or real life abuse, which could be by an individual or by a large community of transgender people