Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

@backformoreofthesame we don't have to have genders though, it's a concept that could be binned. And things are that simple for some of us! I rejected the idea of genders as a young teen when I realised what nonsense it was. I am me, I happen to be female which has some practical implications and lots of negative cultural and social implications that I fight to change.

I'm afraid I don't know what your last sentence means, could you rephrase "You could say that people who reject a none binary are in a way accepting of a binary feminine identity - that’s certainly what some believe"?

Well yes if we didn’t have genders things would be simpler !

You could say that people who reject a none binary are in a way accepting of a binary feminine identity - that’s certainly what some believe

I'm kind of there with you! I have a body - like the vast majority of people it is clearly and definitely one of the two sexes (male in this case). I also have whatever a personality is.

Originally quite often a bunch of ways in which me and my autistic brain try to 'act normal' but in my middle age turning more and more into 'I'm too autistic to put up with this shit, no thank you'

if you truly believe gender is really personality why are you not all saying you are none binary in modern language ?

The difference of opinion is not understanding of one's own gender identity, but whether it is helpful to classify anyone into feminine and masculine gender identities.

If all “gender” was “non-binary” then you could just as easily do away with the entire concept of gender and just have people with a sex and a personality. The word “woman” would (as it did and should) refer to an adult human female regardless of personality. That’s all. Why the insistence that personality must be presented as a “gender identity”?

The thing is, they're sort of saying 'if I can't beat them, I'll join them'.

Which I can understand, sure.

"If you insist that women are people who are feminine, then I'll accept that and say 'in that case I'm not a woman'" vs "if you insist that women are people who are feminine, I'll argue that you are incorrect, and women are people who are female and no other criteria".

I think most people's honest response is 'meh'.

However, at a policy level, classing some people as 'non-binary' assumes that everyone else is 'binary', and that is not helpful.

They are saying “well if you insist on treating women like that count me out “

I’d like to dig a little deeper as you why losing the “women “ as a gender identity seems to matter so much. if it was sex female or male and all gender none binary - would that hurt ?

if you truly believe gender is really personality why are you not all saying you are none binary in modern language ?

Exactly.

Gender is a misogynist & homophobic concept that the world would be better off without & when people identify as trans, nonbinary or cis they’re reinforcing it, not rejecting it.

The ones who are actually fighting for a world where gender is recognised as sexist bollocks are the feminists.

I knew what you were saying Coffeelovr - sorry I didn't make that clear.

Why not?

We had one frequent poster here who would argue that Stonewall was wrong about their definition of trans when they realised it was inclusive of agender people

Of course they should try to escape it, but claiming a non binary identity doesn’t do that and it throws women in general under the bus. They are essentially saying that other women can be treated that way, but not me as I am not in the same category as them. it doesn’t bring about any structural change for all women, and it doesn’t even solve their individual issues as the kind of people who treat women badly due to their sex won’t care about a non binary identity.

"It is kind of sweet thinking you can identify out of the straitjackets imposed on women by society"
I agree. I wasn't saying I agree with them. I'd much rather they stand up for themselves as women

I don't think the Afghanistan/Saudi has any any relevance to people who live in the here and now and don't believe they can make any difference in that respect, so that's not going to be a factor for them

I saw this on X by the NB lawyer. He explains NB really well! 😆

https://x.com/gaynotqueer1/status/2080632589308887430?s=46&t=ZX_bLozRqm8etdGICMcAvA

Of course it doesn’t help if you live in places even
more sexist that the uk

and it doesn’t really work in the UK either

but they want that freedom - you are basically saying they shouldn’t even try to find ways to escape the horror of being female in a male world and some are essentially belittling their choice to try and escape

I wonder how that is working for them? Do you think being non binary helps if they live in Saudi or Afghanistan?

My feeling about non binary is "whatever" - it won't affect vulnerable women as in prisons/shelters/rape crisis centers or stop women participating as in sports/changing rooms/toilets so whatever. It is probably the beginning of the end of the trans/gender movement.

It is kind of sweet thinking you can identify out of the straitjackets imposed on women by society - you can't you can only change society - see Saudi and Afghanistan above. but I imagine it all feels more possible for this generation who are resting on the shoulders of women who did the hard work of gaining access/votes/education/property rights etc.

I hadn’t realised that before thanks

Does anyone else remember reading something about a race, possibly a US marathon, where there were requests for the nonbinary section to be split into AFAB & AMAB for fairness?

It was very funny & I seem to remember causes great outrage.

They missed the most obvious poll option: "insufferable".

That would have been a solid 90-95%.

I think many non-binary-identifying females are doing that to try to avoid being treated negatively in the workplace (ie as women)

Fascinating specifically that there is a sex based difference in the numbers by age