TIFs in single-sex spaces

How is saying that passing TIFs should use unisex or accessible facilities the same as telling them to enter male spaces?

I think you could also make a strong argument that this group is medically disabled. Even if you think it is iatrogenic, that doesn't disqualify them.

No. It doesn't. HTH.

Yep. It's a huge safeguarding issue to tell women to enter male spaces. And women aren't at risk from other women even if they're briefly surprised or have to question the other woman.

It boils down to accepting that reality matters. It's not complicated and pretending it is has helped get us here.

There seems to be a marked difference in the willingness of female born transmen to abide by the law and corrected guidance and male born trans people who are making the most enormous fuss about toilets and have zero respect for the law, the guidance or women.

To be clear I'm not saying that young women in boy's clothes calling themselves Aiden should be banned from female toilets. I'm talking about the rare number of TIFs who pass as the opposite sex and are intimidating to women. They are the only group for whom I can see the utility of unisex facilities. But if there isn't one then they should use the disabled.

Yes, it's not ideal for disabled people but the number of such women is tiny and unlikely to pose a significant usage burden. Meanwhile, despite being few in number, their use of the female toilets could very well open up female only facilities to predatory males by normalising the presence of male appearing people there.

A lot of people are (wilfully?) missing the point. Clearly where someone's sex is known by staff such as hospital or prison, and there are only the options of male or female then they must be placed by sex. Other women can be reassured that the ward or prison is single sex by staff running it.

In public, where someone's sex isn't known to others or the service provider, passing TIFs are intimidating to women and allowing them into women's toilets poses a safeguarding issue in terms of regulating access to women's toilets. Unisex and accessible are almost always available and passing TIFs with any decency should use them, even if by law they are permitted to use the women's.

That isn't creating a different standard where TIFs are permitted into male spaces. Accessible and unisex facilities are not male toilets, are they? Realistically many passing TIFs will continue to use male toilets and there isn't a lot anyone can do about it, but that wasn't ever my argument despite repeated attempts by users here to pretend it was.

This. Lots of people with various conditions, mental, physical, or stage of life as mentioned, need to plan ahead or be aware of the kinds of places they can or cannot go.

On what basis did you consider you were entitled to use men’s facilities? A female person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment remains female and should not use facilities for male people. This has always been the law. The SC only confirmed what most of us already knew.

And how would you know if the man in the ladies had a penis or a surgically created rot pocket?

And even if he has been castrated, he's still a man.

Women are not men without a cock.

No men in women's single sex spaces. No exceptions. It's the only way.

Yeah, reading that back, it doesn't read the way I say it in my head, so my fault entirely! Sorry you wasted so much time! 😄

😂
I spent waaay too long trying to work this one out.

I always find these kind of posts fascinating.

It's like when children get themselves in a pickle and, even when they are really cross with mum, it's mum they go to to get them out of the pickle.

Are you coming back to the thread you started @MiddleCyclone , or are you just the eleventy billionth TRA to attempt the 'transman gotcha'?

This is the bed you've made for yourself.

You're not a man. You don't feel like a woman.
Youve already admitted you make other women uncomfortable now by using the toilet you're supposed to and that isn't womens fault, in this topsy turvy world they have no idea what your biological sex is. You say you 'pass' but I doubt it, Ellen Paige thinks she passes now too. All 5ft1 of her.

I'm trying to find some sympathy for you (I do have more for you than TIMs knowing most women who do this have autism and/or trauma ) but the bulk of my sympathy lies with whoever has to share a space with you and feel that confusion and fear.

No - as above
men do not want women in the men’s loos either…
May be different reasons - still the same outcome though- men in the men’s loos and women in theirs - not difficult to grasp!

I agree. We can't support one rule for TIFs and another for TIMs, because TIMs will use that as a wedge. Plus,this isn't just about well-balanced, confident TIFs striding manfully into the Gents. Lots of very vulnerable young women and even girls have been groomed into thinking that they are men or boys, and, as feminists, we should be ensuring that they are protected from potentially harmful situations.

I agree, and if a TIF has the misfortune to end up in hospital then they should be given a bed on a female ward.

Sorry if that is not what a TIF would want , but the thing is, if we start saying “Oh it’s ok for TIF to use mens toilets because men won’t care” , and “ Yes it’s fine for TIF to be put on a mens ward, no one will bother them. ” then that opens up the door for TIM to demand the same treatment, which they would.

Oh no, I wasn't offended at all! I knew what you meant :) I just felt like sharing the weird 180 my brain did when I read your post :D

@MarieDeGournay I don’t fully agree with you there.

Access needs might also be location dependant. So a large shopping centre that has family toilets means parents don’t need to use the accessible one. When the baby change is in the accessible toilet they do.

My son is disabled, but doesn’t require the adaptations in an accessible toilet. However, he does require the use of an accessible toilet. Should he not use one because he doesn’t need grab rails?

As you say, disability is complex, individual and sometimes invisible.

B.

Edit to add:
I mean, TERF is used by nobheads as shorthand for any GC woman isn't it? But it's no more accurate than any other lazy stereotype.

If you pass, just go in the men’s. Women are not a threat to men in the same way men are to women. Men won’t give you a second glance if you genuinely look male so it’s unlikely to cause any issues.

I know you are and you always come across as respectful I mean no offense to you at all.

I think the OP is doing the faux innocent thing of what about the poor TM they just want to live as a man blah blah blah. My point is well ok go and live as a man but do you want society to treat you as a man in all circumstances?

When you said you didn't call yourself a TERF because you include all females did you mean

a) you think people that call themselves TERFs exclude trans identified females (which is what I assumed from your post)

Or

b) you don't use TERF because it suggests all trans people are excluded which isn't an accurate description of TERF views

Spannasurus, just because I only talked about my personal feminist beliefs doesn't mean I don't know many, many other feminists feel the same.

I'm not the only MERF in the village.