STOP MIS GENDERING ME JUST SAY SHE

Well it's certainly been an education on this board! Luckily I'm no snowflake but do you normally all pile on in such a manner and accuse posters of being vertically challenged mysonist males just because their views seem to be re "all people" instead of "all female people"? I would have thought it would be more productive to be a more.. like Catiette generally if you want to genuine progress peoples though processes in the way you promote. I'm not proud of some of my responses, but I was responding in kind for the most part. A lot of people wouldn't have read on them and seen some of what was behind it.

im not offended that people seem to believe im a thick twat. (I'm not actually.. my life has followed a certain path.. that does not make me stupid or ignorant). But I'm a little offended that people accused me of being a small minded male just because I have a differing view

Your inability to understand why other women don’t see these men as women, and find it oppressive to have it forced on them.

Agree you should talk to @Seethlaw but I’m not seeing this post as in any way relevant to what the poster said to you?

I was speaking generally .not intending to accuse you of saying I was make @Ereshkigalangcleg . Several did. The woman hating thing makes no sense to me either .. I didn't state anything to suggest i dislike women

What about women who idenify as men? I'm hearing little about this aspect

You've been speaking to such a person on this thread, @Seethlaw has been replying to your posts.

I didn’t accuse you of being male so not sure why you are quoting me to complain about it. You’ve repeatedly come out with misinformation on this thread. I don’t think you have a particularly good understanding of the law around gender identity issues but nor do most people, so not a judgment on your intellect or lack of it.

What about women who idenify as men? I'm hearing little about this aspect

Well it's certainly been an education on this board! Luckily I'm no snowflake but do you normally all pile on in such a manner and accuse posters of being vertically challenged mysonist males just because their views seem to be re "all people" instead of "all female people"? I would have thought it would be more productive to be a more.. like Catiette generally if you want to genuine progress peoples though processes in the way you promote. I'm not proud of some of my responses, but I was responding in kind for the most part. A lot of people wouldn't have read on them and seen some of what was behind it.

im not offended that people seem to believe im a thick twat. (I'm not actually.. my life has followed a certain path.. that does not make me stupid or ignorant). But I'm a little offended that people accused me of being a small minded male just because I have a differing view

There’s a conflict of rights though.

According to you, it’s the right of men who say they are women to be recognised as women.

This means that the blue-wigged, stripy socked tantrumy man who is the subject of this thread is a woman.

Women and girls largely do not want this dangerously dysregulated man in their toilets, changing rooms or doing their personal care. TRAs think this is all fine and dandy.

It’s not a “biased” view to not want him, or other men, with vulnerable women.

But we exist together and men can be feminists too?

I care about PEOPLE's rights. All people. That's why I posted in the first place. It doesn't mean I don't care about women's rights.. it just means I'm posting in a place too biased for my voice to land on anything BUT the void.

Glad to have amused you. I can live with that. I might spend more time on the feminist boards. It's quite amusing and I have actually learnt some stuff too.

I think the protective laws make it illegal to behave in a prejudicial way towards trans people. Obviously, I've been fact checking because you lot are good. Mean.. and it would seem somewhat inaccurate at times, .. anand sometimes outright wrong sometimes outright wrong, even whist being uber articulate. But good at expressing yourselves nonetheless . Having had what I have said twisted up like a pretzel, I do standby what I have been saying all along; that the protected characteristic nature of perceiving oneself as trans, does make it illegal for people to abuse you because of it.

Some things are zero sum @DetectiveDouche- the idea that men must be validated as women at all costs is harmful to women and girls. This is the feminism board where we focus on guess what? Women and girls, not men of any type. It’s not the “care about everyone” board, any more than the doghouse is the “care about all mammals” board.

Catiette is much more patient than me and unfailingly civil and polite, I recommend engaging with her posts.

I have book marked your post and will look into some of that @Catiette .

Guys. Imagine you had a child. And like any loving mother or father, you cherished and adored that child and gave them everything you could and you were immensely proud of their loving caring ways and the open communication you had nurtured and created. And eventually, your child, with their individual permit that you had watched, with pride, evolve into a personality separate from you and their other parent but with so many of your qualities and features, and who had grown into a sensitive, clever, kind and somewhat anxious teen, opened their heart and told you the biggest source of their angst.. and it was that they really didn't identify with their own, born gender, they had always felt like this, gradually grown to understand it and found the concept of continuing through life in that gender unthinkable.. and they asked for your help, guidance and support, because that's what you'd always given them and they expected nothing less.

Imagine also that this teenager was your son. Would you really, honestly say, hell no.. you are a boy.. you were born a boy, you have a penis, you've always been a boy and you will grow into a man and you will live that well defined gender role. People will always call you he. You will never be she and I will never ever support you on trying to be anything other than male.. so do not expect this of me. You can expect people to shun you, deny your lived experience and feelings.. some will ridicule you and insist on calling you what you refer to as your 'dead gender'. As for be.. i agree with them.. I support their way of thinking.. You deserve this for daring to express what you are feeling which is so far from what I want for you.. and I cannot conceive of ever feeling any other way.

Is this what you would do? Is this what you would feel? Honestly? All you educated, articulate people of mumsnet?

I care about PEOPLE's rights. All people. That's why I posted in the first place. It doesn't mean I don't care about women's rights.. it just means I'm posting in a place too biased for my voice to land on anything BUT the void.

Glad to have amused you. I can live with that. I might spend more time on the feminist boards. It's quite amusing and I have actually learnt some stuff too.

Your recent posts seem more thoughtful, DD, so one more from me before I go to bed too (I've done that thing of saying I'll head off then getting sucked in, too!)

Much of what you write here misreads and misunderstands the law, GC thinking and what people here are saying. Other readers can see this! In a fast-moving thread in which you're debating with a majority, this can be understandable. But when it shifts into misrepresenting the views of said majority, it doesn't look so good, and makes readers start to question what's going on at your end.

I honestly think that our arguments are "scary" for you, as you're so clearly avoiding GC analysis even as GC posters tackle your own perspective head on. This trend is actually what led me to question the TRA narrative - seeing its superficiality inadvertently highlighted in this way made me read more widely.

I'd really recommend you do the same. There are a number of areas in which I think, if you'll forgive me saying, you're accepting an activist (or highly politicised) narrative and being very naive. It can take a huge amount of courage to accept this may be possible, but really, where's the harm? Read around this stuff and, if your opinions are as right-on as you believe, you'll be able to argue them better. And if not, wouldn't you rather know? Not least as many posters here actually worry that your level of understanding and approach to this debate is actually harming the trans community!

I'd recommend focussing on what you actually mean by trans. I'm someone who would question whether there's any such thing, because (be brave and read on - the next bit's essential!): I see "trans" as a harmful umbrella term that invisibilises and thereby harms a wide range of disparate groups, each with their own respective needs. You could read (by which I mean not just "googling", but actually seeking out and spending long hours with research papers, books, peer reviewed studies etc. - as many posters here have) about

• gender dysphoria (I've spoken to medics about it in some depth - fascinating, especially in how vanishingly rare is really is)
• so-called "trans-identifying" children, with close reference to the above (Irreversible Damage is critically acclaimed on this)
• detransitioners (they're harder to find speaking out, as they're a particularly oppressed community almost totally silenced by that uncomplicatedly positive, harmless umbrella we all so love over here)
• lesbian dissenters (as above)
• autogynephilia (there are some high-profile writers with the condition, including Debbie Hayton, while the profusion of videos out there speak volume - research with care)
• sissification (sp.? - again, extreme care advised, and an internet rabbithole I've very happily not gone down myself!)
• so-called rapid-onset prison dysphoria (ex prison-governor Rhonda Hodgekiss - totally misspelt - is interesting on this)
• high-profile trans writers (eg. Andrea Long Chu - I'm sure this wasn't their intention, but WOW have some made me rethink "trans" as an unthinking umbrella category)
• drag (included under the umbrella by many, including Stonewall til very recently, now less so... what does this suggest about "trans" as a stable category?!)
• the so-called intersex community (disparate voices, as most communities are, but I'd suggest that those whose voices are least heard and are therefore most in need of our attention are those who feel silenced by clumsy attempts to use their condition to validate the concept of "trans" by being - yep, you guessed it - dragged under the umbrella themselves in some cases)
• the similarly-absorbed so-called "trans" communities of other, non-western nations (I'd argue these are not straightforwardly "trans" as we commonly understand it over here, and have in fact been diluted by the western trans umbrella, sometimes - some writers have depressingly suggested - for the political and financial benefits this offers: a kind of cultural colonialism, if you will... again, not a widely heard view here!)
• transwidows (also hard to source information on, as also, frankly, often frightened into silence - all the more reason to seek them out, I say)

Happy reading... (if you dare 😉!)

Oh for the love all that's holy, just read some books.

Or listen to some podcasts.

I'm cringing inside out for you right now. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Look up protected characteristics Betty. Being trans is included.

Why bother with your shite? Well I care about women's rights. And I'm a bit bored, and I'm finding you slightly amusing.

And again you can misrepresent lie about the law, the feminist belief's of the posters here and our arguments, but you are just screaming into a void.

The law is clear, trans identified men are male and do not belong in female single sex spaces. Where necessary, women will continue to take employers, service providers and so on to court where they will continue to win their cases, because both the moral and legal position supports us.

Women have rights, trans identified men do not get to run roughshod over those rights. Women are allowed to say "that is a man/he/him" etc because our stance is both scientific and Worthy Of Respect In A Democratic Society (or WORIADS) as outlined by the Maya Forstater judgement.

Trans identified men will just have to live with that! It's just a fact of living a life in the 2020s.. women have rights whether you accept it or not. Whole point of my posts 😂

Your exchange could only have been made better by adding a sneery "so there!", giving it "nyer ner ne nyer ner!", and sticking your metaphorical tongue out at me.

Like I said, slightly amusing.