STOP MIS GENDERING ME JUST SAY SHE

As Hakeem had a new interview drop overnight and he is of the opinion that we are watching an autistic meltdown. He explains it all very clearly.

I agree.

This person is obviously extremely mentally unwell. I think it’s incredibly wrong, a total breach of privacy and an abuse of position for a police officer to put this on YouTube. I feel sick having watched some of it. This person needs help not mockery.

And you OP - why have you shared it on here? So we can join in mocking a mentally ill person? Shame on you.

I am gender critical, but this has gone way too far for me.

What I saw was a reasonable officer trying to calm down an hysterical individual with potential to harm others in the vicinity. What I saw was The policeman call on the university clerk to see if he could calm him down. What I saw was an individual beaking all the rules of societal interaction, screaming and threatening. There won't be a lawsuit because the bodycam footage shows a reasonable attempt to manage this person and when it became apparent that this wasn't going to work, the officer warned several times about what was going to happen. There was no mob. the officer called for backup because it took 2 to subdue him. It was reasonable. What would you suggest they could have done?

I think it refers to the me, me, me self-indulgent performance of kiddolts who's grip on reality is a slight tenuous.

'These people'? You mean people suffering from a mental health crisis?

Agreed.

I initially felt a bit sorry for how this young man had backed himself into a corner and couldn’t (wouldn’t?) figure out how to avoid an escalation.

It wouldn’t be a surprise to find out he had an autism diagnosis. The screaming, however, felt entirely down to how he has been able to use genderism, likely successfully esp in a university, to assert control over others up until the point where he started to goad the policeman.

The sympathy diminished at the bit where his response was to take his bloody phone out and start filming and then lost when he’s being walked into the police car. At that point he was speaking in a normal but pissed off male tone of voice, wholly different presentation.

Edited to add: laughing at mentally ill people (trans or not) is a good idea. We can be critical of trans ideology without resorting to that I don’t think many on this thread are laughing at this young man. Most posts are reflecting on how the ‘using preferred pronouns is being polite’ position has enabled this young man’s entitlement.

I agree, @RedToothBrush , but I'm not sure that anyone has been saying that his behaviour should be tolerated, or that he doesn't have responsibility for managing his outbursts. I think the only point being made was that it was a bit uncomfortable to see him held up to mocking online.

Naturally anyone with autism who is well enough to live independently has the same responsibly as others to consider their behaviour and employ strategies to ensure they can maintain normal respectful boundaries as much as their autism allows.

Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but in my opinion those are two very different things. Maybe the trans debate has lost some of its nuance on both sides? I wouldn't personally want to antagonise or upset a work colleague over what they want to be called but I also wouldn't want to be in a changing room with them.

This video was clearly showing a difficult situation, with to be honest a very difficult person who was acting unreasonably. That said, they're clearly not mentally well; like someone else said, who screams about pronouns when threatened with a taser? That is not someone who is being rational and I don't know if filming and laughing at mentally ill people (trans or not) is a good idea. We can be critical of trans ideology without resorting to that.

I think for some it's mental illness but I also think people who have no underlying issues just get themselves wrapped in a little bubble and the way they adapt there just doesn't work in the real world, so they find it hard. I've seen a few people who said they were non-binary just drop it as it's just an extra thing to be stressed about that they don't want anymore. They've been told repeatedly that misgendering is some harmful act, and so can't handle it when it happens. I also think for some it's pure entitlement. They think they get to set the rules.

Should we tolerate certain behaviours just because they are from someone who has difficulties in life? Should they get a free pass to unacceptable behaviour which is anti-social?

Absolutely not, regardless of the circumstances because these actions are having massive negative impacts on others.

Just because you are autistic doesn't mean you are incapable of managing yourself. Everyone has triggers and you have to learn to recognise them and take responsibility for your behaviour.

Yes burn outs happen but this is where it is crucial to draw lines and boundaries much earlier on in the process so you aren't getting to a point of having a full public meltdown over claiming you are female when it's fucking obvious you are male from every action and cell in your body.

Tolerating certain things and affirming them as acceptable is definitely part of the problem not the solution.

Just like even if you really really really want cake as a small child, you learn that sometimes you can't have it no matter how much you scream and you don't scream about it when you are an adult. You learn and make sensible decision and understand you can't afford cake and cake isn't good for you so you don't have a tantrum over not being able to eat it. Sometimes you may have an occasional slice of cake but you get that cake by not being a bloody twat about it.

And yes the vast majority of autistic people can manage cake buying in their life in a sensible way when it comes down to it, even if they eat cake more often than the average person. Because they can regulate and understand boundaries in normal everyday life when they are taught how to do so and understand why it is important.

This patronising idea of autistic people as overgrown bloody toddlers doesn't help anyone. Least of all autistic people themselves.

To be fair, @FinchiePink didn’t say that all autistic people are trans, just that a lot of trans people are autistic.

It is pretty well documented that a high proportion of heterosexual trans adult males are autistic (ref Dr Az Hakeem) and autistic /ND kids and teens are/were highly over represented in those presenting at the Uk gender clinic because of distress at their changing bodies or literal interpretation of their interest in hobbies not associated with their sex meaning they are the other sex. (Ref Hannah Barnes Time to Think).

Every trans person I know has a diagnosis of autism or ADHD. Which is only about 6 people, all in their 20s, but it is a pattern.

That doesn’t mean everyone with autism
is trans, or that the person in the video is autistic, or that anyone is suggesting you are likely to behave anything like the man in the video because you are autistic.

One thing to remember when discussing whether the person might be autistic is that (except just possibly for some people with profound autism), suggesting that autism is involved doesn't mean that the behaviour is entirely explained by autism.

Autistic people are like everyone else: their behaviour has multiple determinants. It could well be that his behaviour is shaped by autism, plus supervening mental illness, plus other personality features, plus male entitlement, plus the sanity-eroding effects of being overly online in TRA bubbles.

All autistic people are different. Even their core autism is different. Those of you who say "I'm autistic and I'm not like that" seem to be asserting a kind of uniformity of divergence, which is paradoxical and also not very respectful of people with an autism more profoundly challenging than theirs.

99% of the time I hate it when so many behaviours lead MN posters to say "ooh but could he be autistic". But sometimes it is a reasonable hypothesis.

At nearly 60 I’ve been subject to male aggression all my life from domestic violence in my home as a child, to a short period in a relationship myself that started to become violent, to aggression at work (men storming out of meetings, shouting, throwing things on one occasion), frequently on public transport.

And now we have to put up with the same thing but from men saying/demanding that everyone recognise them as women. The male aggression is still there.

it really upsets me to see a man going off like this. I would have felt scared to be in his vicinity. I think the police should have acted a lot more quickly than they did to remove him.

i don’t feel sorry for him even if he is autistic. Other people shouldn’t have to be fearful of him and his behaviour.

I agree that there’s nothing entertaining about this video.

However, the policeman was not goading this young man into anything. In fact, he used a remarkably calm voice really to start with and it was only after the young man in question repeatedly refused to follow instructions that the policeman demonstrated irritation.

Perhaps in a workplace interaction in a normal day you successfully avoid using pronouns. Well done. As for using the correct pronouns in this specific circumstance, he was doing so when calling in the incident to request backup. Fgs there was every need for the additional responders to know that it was an aggressive man involved and not a woman, which is the conclusion they’d have drawn if the policeman had said ‘she’ instead of ‘he’. The man in question was solid and looked strong.

"Do you think the staff thought oh he’s coming, call the police? No, they probably tried really hard to calm him down before calling."

The police weren't called about his behaviour at all. Having seen the entire video, right at the very start the policeman says that he is on his way to another incident (he mentions something about a stolen car).

It is when the policeman moves towards the lift that the other guy starts shouting just at the sight of a policeman.

"I don’t know what the criteria for releasing these videos is, does something specific have to happen to trigger a video release?"

Anyone can request police bodycam footage in the USA under a Freedom of Information Request. The only times when it would be withheld is if there was still an ongoing investigation or it was from inside somebody's home or the person was under 18 etc.

To clear up a few questions……

There is a whole industry/ people make money on YouTube posting footage of police body worn camera footage. In the States, footage is made public and/or released via FOI as part of a trust and transparency agenda re police behaviour.

It seems likely that this was recently released in line with not releasing until legal action is concluded.

Once the student was arrested and placed in the car, a conversation took place where they were deciding next steps. They referred to Baker Acting him - this is the equivalent of sectioning in the UK. The Baker Act is the name of the relevant legislation.

I've seen a lot of extreme distress/losing control/genuine despair, and quite a lot of autism, and it doesn't really seem like either to me. It feels inauthentic. I wouldn't take the risk though.

I don't agree with anyone's mental distress being plastered over the internet.
If he was truly having an autistic meltdown he would not be in a state to stop, say thank you for them using the correct pronoun, and then pick up where he left off because he didn't want to be handcuffed. That action implies a level of awareness and control that wouldn't be present in a meltdown.

And yet the Autism societies do not rail against their user group being transed.

Weird.

There’s nothing entertaining in goading someone into such a state
I actively avoid using pro nouns there’s no need

im inclined to agree. There is one bit where he gets angry initially and he gets very male indeed then seems to remember and goes back high pitched. Interesting.

Have you watched YouTube recently?

Did Rose West ever say she was a cis woman?

Agree with this.
We pander to specific needs when this is not how the world works and actually it’s not kind at all in the long run