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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

STOP MIS GENDERING ME JUST SAY SHE

793 replies

RogueFemale · 22/07/2026 22:04

In case anyone has missed this prize example of a mentally ill adult male exhibiting trans entitlement.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Miw3pgBe4

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zebrazoop · 28/07/2026 05:06

The audacity of a white man continues to surprise me .

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2026 09:53

Igmum · 27/07/2026 08:35

Yes @Helleofabore. The balanced solution is actually the Supreme Court decision. It allows LGB their rights as same sex attracted, supports single sex provision so women and women’s rights, and also continues to protect many trans people through the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. But the activists have become so focused on affirmation that they continually present this as some dreadful transphobic attack. And people believe them. It’s crazy.

Absolutely. Balance.

Not winning.

Arguably we should start changing our language her to reflect things.

It's about bringing rights back into balance (which protects women's rights in full) AND recognises trans people (even if we think it's nonsense but understanding this includes a great many vulnerable individuals who need to be protected - sometimes from themselves). It's about protecting others who come into contact with women and transpeople so they don't get dragged into grossly unfair court cases brought by vexatious and ridiculous individuals.

Where we are right now is insane. It's not serving the best interests of ANYONE.

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2026 09:45

Then, gradually, finding out who you could talk to (and this includes gay friends who hate that they’ve been lumped in with trans) and a sensible policy emerging

DH and I have a gay friend who we don't know that well and he raised the subject with DH about a year ago (not DH raising it with him). I'm openly GC but I don't think he was aware as we've been careful not to mention it around him for obvious reasons. It surprised DH but obviously he's been able to talk about it with this friend. The gay friend was very supportive of trans people but also very aware that he probably would have been transsed if he was young enough and that has really not sat well with him. He's so very glad he didn't have that pressure on him at a time he was unsure of who he was. He's a wonderful effeminate man who owns it and also has his own masculinity within that. He does wear a skirt pretty frequently because he loves fashion but it's most definitely simply a man's skirt for fashion purposes. I think he feels this is an identity that's being lost and he wants to make sure people know this is ok - and potentially be a role model for younger men perhaps to resist that pressure to transition. He's well accepted in the community and very rarely gets grief (though it sadly has happened).

Anyway he's also pretty fed up of the corporate pride stuff which he feels has lost its way and is out of touch with the local community, so has taken it upon himself to organise a new grassroots pride event with a couple of other people we know which goes back to all the old skool activism. It's not a big thing but it's big enough. He has very deliberately organised family friendly events and adult only events as part of this. He's clearly very conscious of what has been going on and how inappropriate some pride events have become and how there is a real need to be sensitive to this.

In other words he actually gets what's been happening to a significant enough level from his own perspective. And from what I can tell there is huge support from people he knows for it within the gay community. There is a lot of built up resentment for corporate pride within the gay community and how this has alienated some parts of the public - many of us here. And this isn't what his gay friends want. I believe he has a bunch coming from all over the country this year rather than going to the big well known pride events.

We are supporting him with it and think he's doing a great job of almost rebooting something important at a time when it's actually quite hard because there's a noticeable backlash and people generally are becoming more wary of being caught and sucked into a culture war and having to 'pick a side'. He wants to restore the link with the community and it not be political and dominated by the usual organisations. I do think it's important, especially when I know the person organising it is recognising there's certainly problems and tensions within the LGBT community and there has to be greater thought and consideration from within.

Some of it I admittedly struggle with. Friend is using the traditional pride flag and the progress flag (this is a conscious decision I believe - he clearly feels the progress flag isn't appropriate alone and that's interesting in itself). Frankly I think he's uncomfortable with elements of the community too but I think he's trying to bridge a division he sees openly up and he wants to be the sensible head / different thinking within that and that's fair enough. I don't have to agree with everything to understand it's value and importance. And it's certainly not about hate to disagree or not like the views of everyone all the time. There SHOULD always be people in your community who you are fundamentally opposed to in terms of your views but are able to rattle along with and at least be civil to! Because that's the sign of a healthy community who talk to each other and are truly tolerant rather than just intimidating.

More than that, it gives me awareness that there's internal conversations and talk within a community that I have very little insight into as I don't belong to it. It is going beyond the LGB Alliance and the Gay Mens Network - again at a grassroots level. There is no way our friend is alone in his views given the way he openly talked with DH about it.

It's fascinating to see.

It's completely and utterly separate from what's happened here on MN and that's also really important for women here to know. Just because it's not on your radar it doesn't mean it's not there.

Of course this is going to absolutely terrify militant TRAs because it's a break in the monopoly and one dimensional dominance they've enjoyed. It is a loss of power and influence. And more importantly control.

This is really the way things need to go to bring things back into balance.

And that word 'balance' is really the one missing from so many of these conversations about rights. There is the huge lack of understanding of the underlying principles and point of rights and how they work for everyone within a community not just one group. That's the key to it all. It's not about 'winning'. We should not be aiming to 'win this'. We are going to pull things back into balance. People who identify as trans also win if we manage to do this. It is the only way we are able to really protect everyone. The reality of acknowledging sex is framed as a risk - this is the most bonkers thing in it all. It's a nonsense. You can only protect trans identifying people by acknowledging sex. It's literally the only way they can be legally recognised as distinct from the rest of the population!

Igmum · 27/07/2026 08:50

On a more optimistic - albeit long term - note, I heard an interesting interview with Helen Joyce over the weekend. She was looking back to when race discrimination first became illegal (1968?) and then, like now, the law was widely ignored. Employers and service providers simply carried on discriminating and openly admitted it, unaware they were doing anything wrong. Many years and many court cases later things have changed, but it wasn’t easy and it wasn’t quick.

Helleofabore · 27/07/2026 08:37

Igmum · 27/07/2026 08:35

Yes @Helleofabore. The balanced solution is actually the Supreme Court decision. It allows LGB their rights as same sex attracted, supports single sex provision so women and women’s rights, and also continues to protect many trans people through the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. But the activists have become so focused on affirmation that they continually present this as some dreadful transphobic attack. And people believe them. It’s crazy.

Yes. In the rush to be kind, some people forget the difference between not only legit and illegitimate discrimination, but that female people deserve ‘kindness’ and their needs ‘affirmed’ as legitimate too.

Others just want to jump on an opportunity to tell women and girls that they are bigots.

It horrified me at the start that people would jump to those conclusions, but it seems to be celebrated by some in society or ignored by the ‘both sides’ accusers, now I just expect it.

Igmum · 27/07/2026 08:35

Yes @Helleofabore. The balanced solution is actually the Supreme Court decision. It allows LGB their rights as same sex attracted, supports single sex provision so women and women’s rights, and also continues to protect many trans people through the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. But the activists have become so focused on affirmation that they continually present this as some dreadful transphobic attack. And people believe them. It’s crazy.

Helleofabore · 27/07/2026 08:11

I think Red’s post resonates with many of us.

When I think of how much time many of us put into reading widely, dissecting the events and the commentary, it is a remarkable effort. And it is one that so often gets demonised under the dismissal of ‘you are all obsessed’.

How does a group of people believe they are the righteous thinkers and the kind people when they denigrate anyone who takes as much time as many of us have to sort through the shit load of misinformation to find the facts that fit an accurate representation of what is happening? When you understand just how much misinformation has been fed to society and to our government decision makers, you realise just how upside down the world has become on this issue. in many countries.

When women and girls are punished, and some very severely, by pointing out that someone is a male person while discussing how that harms female people or asking why female people have to accept that male person’s subjective reality as material reality, it feels like so many people just accept those women and girls must have deserved it. Because if the women and girls didn’t deserve it. then why isn’t it on the news?

If I remember just how many posters plop down their censure and call those who have taken their time to inform themselves deeply, it is many per week. Either they see themselves as transgender ‘allies’ or they are see themselves as the moderate, kind people who ‘live and let live’ as if the degree to which they do that is supposed to admirable.

The latter always seem to not understand that there is no halfway that is kind and in many instances achievable if female people and their rights are to be protected as needed. They haven’t thought about it deeply enough to see where the issues in their solutions lay.

Or they inform us about third spaces without fucking understanding that feminists have been suggesting this for over a decade! But apparently, there are all these solutions that feminists ‘just haven’t considered’! Or even better, one that if we stopped obsessing and demonising trans people, we would find one yet discovered.

But we are the ones who are worthy of derision.

LunaShip · 27/07/2026 07:36

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2026 10:28

DH has always been pretty supportive of my position but has upset me at times.

There were things happening which he refused to believe were real. He'd turn around and say it was exaggerated, never happened or were pure propaganda that was twisted. He questioned sources and reliability of information.

I always said to him this was so disrespectful to me given my education. I always checked and always did due diligence about what I was reading and whilst it wasn't from the trusted sources the stories were excellent in detail and journalistic integrity and this has always stood out to me. As well as reasons why they were rejected by mainstream media.

Something was going on and my own journalist instincts kicked in about the sheer number, where they were coming from and who was writing them. It wasn't nutjob groups with over zealous individuals. It wasn't written in overly emotional wording. It wasn't over the top. It was incredibly sensible women stating things which seemed implausible and had everything to lose from doing it.

And this total lack of willingness to even consider the possibility that there was a real problem and truth which was in line with my own personal experience which he was not only well aware of but had been, at times, on the recieving end of really annoyed me.

But this falls into a habit of human behaviour: one that shattered for me as a teen.

The 'nothing that bad could possibly happen to me, because I live in a nice world' bubble. You are trained not to believe all manner of terrible things could happen - and this protects us as humans from becoming gibbering wrecks. But there's also plenty of people who have ultimately survived all manner of situations because they could see something was off and reacted before others did - they realised it wasn't unwarranted anxiety but a legitimate concern. I do think it's very difficult to tell the difference at times.

In the run up to COVID there was a bunch of posters here who said "hmm this one isn't just a daily mail 'everyone is going die of cancer next week' type headline". There was a clear pattern of problem, escalation, out of control state before it got taken seriously by most people. There were people who panicked and blew it up out context too. But theres this firm group of level headers who logiked in a way that was sensible and that's what you look for. Authenticity and level headedness. The ones that don't emote too much.

This is also why Graham Linehan and Caroline Farrow in particular, have had issues. They fail 'the sensibles' test. Maya Forstater, Jo Phoenix and JKRowling all pass. It's the measured language and the way they argue in a robust but clear way.

TRAs hate it. They used the propaganda techniques of blowing up emotions and guilt to push through ideas and The Sensibles cut through that and show it's lack of substance.

But back to my original point. I almost had to convince and show the difference to DH over a very long period. No I haven't lost my mind and entered a conspiracy theory world. I was identifying a major issue that had been deliberately allowed to develop without accountability and scrutiny. Aka a scandal.

I guess he only really started to take it seriously when Newsnight started to cover the Tavistock. He needed the heavyweight journalism and reputation to see what I was seeing (and note the Newsnight journalists also used their instincts to take seriously). At that point he started to realise all these little incidents which mirrored the ones we'd personally had weren't so isolated or out of the ordinary. And indeed many women and children were experiencing far worse because activists had been encouraged and allowed to get out of control without any accountability.

It took him a long time to get over "it's bollocks it's in The Fail" mentality and bias. He just didn't WANT to acknowledge it because it shattered his own world view. One where he wanted to believe that all trans people were just vulnerable and were otherwise nice and completely reasonable, despite what he'd seen with his own eyes.

It's like he's been trailing me in realising the scale of the problem for years. Even though he partly got it. What hurt is he'd rather believe I was crazy and hysterical than take my concerns seriously. That has stayed with me - he knew better even though it was my area of expertise so to speak.

When last year we were sat on hay bails and two tittering men with beards sat down to listen to a talk on women in the outdoors and I whispered to him what was about to happen - a grab to intimidate and silence women and ruin something really important in the sport he loved and had been trained to recognise in terms of how women respond differently to coaching techniques due to skill, confidence and strength differences, I think that's probably been the last bit of the wool falling from his eyes.

He had recognised there's were extremists and nutjob activists who were dominating discourse well before that point. But that point was it colliding with his world, his values and experience and was a sort of normal everyday almost incidious pissing to mark territory and power over women in a fashion and on a topic which has well established creditials as being a legitimate need and a legitimate problem.

My point is even if people see it partly, they often don't want to see it in full because it exposes how dark and deeply it extends and how complicit they themselves have almost been in it for not questioning more sooner and being trusting of those trusted establishments and organisations. It's seeing things and people to value and respect behaviour in a way that's been totally unprofessional, unthinking and lacking in appropriate due diligence. And that's really hard.

It's a smashing of innocence. An innocence that people want to hold onto dearly and believe that something bad isn't happening.

If something bad is happening it challenges you to do something about it. It requires effort. And apathy is also a driver because people don't want confrontation or to do anything. They'd rather just go along with it and hope it goes away.

MN became home to the sensibles. It recognised the integrity. It questioned the stories and filtered crazy from concerning. It raises accountability issues and safeguarding issues.

But most of all it was a space where people facing these real life experiences first hand ended up gathering and exchanging notes. And that's the biggest misconception and mistakes the ploppers make.

They almost, without fail, say "well if you knew and cared about transpeople in your real life, you'd think / do differently".

They bring their prejudices here. It's easy to dismiss us as extremists, right wing nutjobs, conspiracy theorists, aging dinosaurs who don't like change, to characterise us as not understanding the rights and the law, to make out we are hysterical and to dismiss us as angry menopausal women who just hate all men.

The problem is, we are none of those. We are the sensibles. We talk in a way that cuts through the nonsense. It's hated because we get it, because we are educated and because we have our own valid life experiences. We are hated for being articulate and being able to cut through arguments that are so momentumally weak and flawed, it causes embarrassment on the part of the arguer to be challenged so easily and be unable to come up with a credible response other than 'well that's what I was told I should believe'.

It takes time for people facing this to come to terms with it, even if they have one foot through the door. It's hard to see the world as it is, rather than through the lens of a potential perfect utopia of progressive thinking where everyone is accepted for who they are without any issues. It's hard to notice the unintended consequences of this thinking. It's hard to see the dark undercurrents and dark side of humans exploiting other humans for their own power and kicks. Because that means we have to challenge our own lives and how we have been blinkered to something so widespread and been part of the problem from our lack of willingness to listen to the troubles of others who really don't have a voice. We want to believe were listening to the most vulnerable and it comes as a shock that we may have been duped and mislead and actively controlled into closing our ears to those who don't have advocacy and agency from institutions. We thought we were being nice when really we were being staggeringly naive to the point that not everyone is nice.

DH now thinks it's a social cult with mass support which needs to be dealt with and challenged properly. But it took a long time to get here. He no longer thinks I've been reading too much bullshit online and doesn't patronise my integrity. It's not been easy.

Unfortunately it boils down to men never believing women. It's misogyny manifest. Even after #MeToo, it made absolutely no impact. Men just do not believe women. About....anything.

Sandytoesies · 27/07/2026 07:21

Redtoothbrush - amazing post, thank you.

It’s quite extraordinary reflecting back on the early days - my dh thought I was ‘obsessed’ and I remember explaining the issue to various family members who were very ‘wtf’ but shocked that it was happening. As often said, I came to mumsnet when pregnant and stayed for the feminism. I was a guide leader at the time and mumsnet was an amazing corner of rational thought! I remember the absolute taboo of any discussion about how we should handle it as kids started to ‘present’ as the opposite sex at my school. Then, gradually, finding out who you could talk to (and this includes gay friends who hate that they’ve been lumped in with trans) and a sensible policy emerging - and actually there are now no longer any ‘trans’ kids in the school and most of those that were have grown out of it. A big moment was actually an edi training day someone went on which was not all full on TRA, they returned with advice to not change policies on single sex spaces but to wait until outcome of Cass. Now we are at time wher e the majority of people eye-roll at trans (including teens) and we can openly discuss the need for women’s safe spaces in more situations - not at Guides though! And unis are still very hostile to free speech. And the vile drag show on bbc is still allowed to deliberately and openly be misogynistic. For me the next thing we need to be able to discuss properly is ‘surrogacy’ where trading babies appears to have been normalised using the same tactics that were used by the trans lobby.

Heggettypeg · 27/07/2026 00:31

Helleofabore · 26/07/2026 21:33

So apparently the Queen and JKRowling should be beheaded according to a male ex-prisoner with a violent criminal past who has form for issuing threats towards women and getting away with it.

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/2081125693375529243?s=46

But remember, feminists are just as extreme and ‘both sides’ are bad.

I wonder if Lord Walney has seen this? He's apparently just spoken up about Bash Back (see the Bash Back is going to backfire thread), but I don't know how much he knows about all the other stuff - this and the other posters on demos; and the file of incidents that Sex Matters have collected; and terfisaslur. Ie does he know that Bash Back is only part of a wider picture?

MissConductUS · 26/07/2026 23:48

RogueFemale · 26/07/2026 22:01

Yes, it's great it's moving in the right direction - still a very long way to go, like here.

There was a quote in the majority opinion in the decision allowing states to bar men from joining women's and girls' sports teams that really went to the heart of the issue:

Men and boys with gender dysphoria are not women or girls, even if they believe they are.

That's going to get cited in lots of future cases. It's a very powerful legal precedent.

RogueFemale · 26/07/2026 22:17

Helleofabore · 26/07/2026 21:33

So apparently the Queen and JKRowling should be beheaded according to a male ex-prisoner with a violent criminal past who has form for issuing threats towards women and getting away with it.

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/2081125693375529243?s=46

But remember, feminists are just as extreme and ‘both sides’ are bad.

Has this man been interviewed by the police for this apparent threat against the Queen?

ETA: if not, he should be.

OP posts:
RogueFemale · 26/07/2026 22:01

MissConductUS · 26/07/2026 21:54

Gender critical Yank here. The tide is turning here against trans ideology.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/06/court-rules-that-states-can-exclude-transgender-athletes-from-girls-and-womens-sports-teams/

The Supreme Court also recently ruled that states can ban gender affirming medical interventions (surgery, hormones, etc.) for people under 18 years of age.

Yes, it's great it's moving in the right direction - still a very long way to go, like here.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 26/07/2026 21:56

One of my earliest tweets on the topic back in about 2017/8 was basically:

Women: we don't want men in our spaces
Men: fuck you bitch we will fuck you up, go die in a grease fire you fucking TERF CUNT, we do what we want
Women: yeah, that's why.

Got banned. Both sides, yeah right.

MissConductUS · 26/07/2026 21:54

RogueFemale · 23/07/2026 23:53

You're USA then. That might explain a lot. Your ignorance of the law, for a start.

Protip: stop using the ROFL emoji in reply to everyone.

Gender critical Yank here. The tide is turning here against trans ideology.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/06/court-rules-that-states-can-exclude-transgender-athletes-from-girls-and-womens-sports-teams/

The Supreme Court also recently ruled that states can ban gender affirming medical interventions (surgery, hormones, etc.) for people under 18 years of age.

Court rules that states can exclude transgender athletes from girls’ and women’s sports teams

https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/06/court-rules-that-states-can-exclude-transgender-athletes-from-girls-and-womens-sports-teams/

Helleofabore · 26/07/2026 21:33

So apparently the Queen and JKRowling should be beheaded according to a male ex-prisoner with a violent criminal past who has form for issuing threats towards women and getting away with it.

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/2081125693375529243?s=46

But remember, feminists are just as extreme and ‘both sides’ are bad.

ripx4nutmeg (@ripx4nutmeg) on X

Social media has been awash with the calls for violence that were on display at #TransPrideLondon. BBC News covers the event but mentions absolutely none of this, instead describing the day as 'joyous' and 'amazing'.

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/2081125693375529243?s=46

Igmum · 26/07/2026 18:49

If you are still here @DetectiveDouchethen thank you for staying and for genuinely engaging. As you can see from the reactions that’s rare from non-GC visitors.

One thing I want to add which has only briefly been mentioned here (understandably because of the topic) is safeguarding and the transing of children. You used a child as your example. Again I can see why. Good women love and protect children.

Well I think that this is where you get the good women. I’m assuming that your three are a little older and missed the worst of the social contagion. It wasn’t the happy sporty kids this cult drew in. It was the traumatised, awkward, LGB and autistic. They were told that the reason they didn’t fit in, felt awkward or struggled socially was that they were born in the wrong body. And children believe what adults say. They really do.

Adults who say ‘trans women are women’ almost certainly don’t mean it literally. They think they are being nice and polite, are protecting their trans friends and colleagues, are doing what good people should do. If you asked them to treat a trans woman for a miscarriage or for endometriosis they would think you were mad (of course TW do claim to have miscarriages and endometriosis but that’s another story).

Children aren’t like that. Children genuinely believe that you somehow magically change sex.

This wouldn’t matter if the institutions around those children did their bog standard safeguarding. If they provided support for ASD, for trauma, for children who have been sexually abused, for children uncomfortable with puberty or struggling with growing homosexual attraction. They don’t do either. Instead the institutions fail to provide support on any of these issues and focus on celebrating and affirming the new identity, pushing the child towards one solution for all of their problems.

That solution is brutal. Puberty blockers stop a necessary developmental stage and may reduce IQ by 10+ points, turning a child who had struggled slightly into an adult who cannot live independently. Wrong sex hormones have many horrific side effects and young girls taking them are recommended for hysterectomies after 5 years because of these effects. Too many menopause support groups now include young women in their 20s.

Of course these interventions don’t solve their other problems. They are still autistic, depressed, traumatised etc but now they have attracted a range of other problems (incontinent at 19 anyone?). According to research the majority of young people in every age group who identify as trans desist or detransition. The majority. Sadly this point is where the increased risk of suicide is. Not because the adults around them won’t let them be trans, but because those adults pushed them to be trans instead of actually dealing with their problems.

Where is the child transition capital of Britain? You ask. Blackpool. From the many children in care shipped there to be surrounded by paedophiles and supported in their transition by Social Services.

You may think that child transition is lovely. To me, as an old lefty, I think it sounds like eugenics - sterilise and mutilate those who don’t fit in.

DrBlackbird · 26/07/2026 13:28

It takes time for people facing this to come to terms with it, even if they have one foot through the door. It's hard to see the world as it is, rather than through the lens of a potential perfect utopia of progressive thinking where everyone is accepted for who they are without any issues.

I hold onto to this hope that, with time and experience, my DC will be able to come to terms with the manifest reality that sex matters more than gender.

It’s thanks to them that I went looking for sensible commentary and found FWR after hearing this crazy claim from them that men could become women by uttering the magic words. They came to believe this because of the constant flow of Trans are Beautiful posts coming up in their Insta feeds thanks to social media algorithms.

Once in a while they’ll make a comment that feels like one step forward (thanks to Isla Bryson) but then it’s two quick steps back. It’s looks like it’s akin to being an evangelical adherent and then suddenly feeling like a heretic to find themselves questioning the religious orthodoxy. It’s not a comfortable place to be. They held onto the belief that being liberal and progressive automatically equates to supporting LGBTQ++,so it’s very difficult for them to let that go.

It's a smashing of innocence. An innocence that people want to hold onto dearly and believe that something bad isn't happening.

And especially difficult to believe because of how long they’re felt themselves to be good people by supporting the TQ++ ideology. The insight that they’ve been manipulated by those pushing the cause who actually have bad intentions towards women is hard to accept.

Catiette · 26/07/2026 13:07

A really moving post, RedToothBrush. And spot-on.

Hedgehogforshort · 26/07/2026 13:03

Loved your post red. My DH is on board now but took a while.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/07/2026 12:21

BettyBooper · 25/07/2026 22:34

Great post @CohensDiamondTeeth . Agree.

The utter rocking of your world when you realise that every institution you have grown up respecting and believing in has fallen for complete bullshit is quite literally mind-blowing and devastating.

But the truth is important. And unless we have that, all else is lost.

I have long since clung to the absolute truth that humans can't change sex to navigate this. I stick to it like a limpet sticks to rock in a stormy sea.

And I'm so thankful for being able to have this board as a place of discussion and free thought.

Absolutely this. It’s deeply destabilising.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 26/07/2026 11:35

Wonderful post @RedToothBrush 👏👏👏

I'm sorry that you and @WhatterySquash experienced that with your DH too Flowers It does change things in a perceptible way that some of our DHs were so willing to believe we were crazy rather than believe our judgement that something was very, very wrong, even if hopefully most of them will catch up in the end.

Edited to add an @ to WhatterySquash. FWIW I don't know if my exDH gets it now, he didn't when I was married to him. It was one of the (many) reasons I left.

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2026 11:28

WhatterySquash · 26/07/2026 11:05

So interesting about your DH RedToothBrush - I think the whole thing has revealed to so very many women that so many men, even their partners, find it pretty easy to dismiss a woman's POV and intelligent understanding of a situation and how it affects us, and what Galileo called "humble reasoning" in the face of authority, on the part of the "sensibles".

I separated from my ex around 2015 before it became so mainstream but he soon became a veritable flag-waving he/him (he's an academic) and did a lot of public ally-signalling. I was relieved I was no longer with him and kind of unsurprised as he's always been a bit of a classic self-satisfied wokebro unthinking misogynist.

So I avoided talking to him about it until we needed to discuss it recently in relation to our DC (one with classic risk factors and very on board with GI, one not on board and having arguments with ex about it). To my amazement we had a reasonable and sensible conversation and ex openly opined that many of the young trans-IDing people he encounters at work are troubled and misguidedly seeing trans as a solution. I also asked him if he personally would see a trans-IDing person as the opposite sex for the purposes of dating and he laughed and said no of course not!

A few years ago I would have been massively shut down by him on this as I was on any other subject we disagreed on. Now he's had time to catch up, being an intelligent person with reasoning capacity he can see some of the issues and his cognitive dissonance has been forced to collapse. However, he's still signalling - perhaps reasonably for fear of losing his job or general ostracism.

What people say to me personally is often very different to what they say to others tbh.

They know my circumstances or that I'm ultra reasonable about politics and can have difficult conversations without being a twat.

I've had people in my life (who I wouldn't call friends or family but people I've had to deal with) who have had unpalatable views. But I know them to otherwise be good people and I don't dismiss this either.

Once a conversation is opened up, people will say things in 'safe company' and that a really important factor in this to recognise.

WhatterySquash · 26/07/2026 11:05

So interesting about your DH RedToothBrush - I think the whole thing has revealed to so very many women that so many men, even their partners, find it pretty easy to dismiss a woman's POV and intelligent understanding of a situation and how it affects us, and what Galileo called "humble reasoning" in the face of authority, on the part of the "sensibles".

I separated from my ex around 2015 before it became so mainstream but he soon became a veritable flag-waving he/him (he's an academic) and did a lot of public ally-signalling. I was relieved I was no longer with him and kind of unsurprised as he's always been a bit of a classic self-satisfied wokebro unthinking misogynist.

So I avoided talking to him about it until we needed to discuss it recently in relation to our DC (one with classic risk factors and very on board with GI, one not on board and having arguments with ex about it). To my amazement we had a reasonable and sensible conversation and ex openly opined that many of the young trans-IDing people he encounters at work are troubled and misguidedly seeing trans as a solution. I also asked him if he personally would see a trans-IDing person as the opposite sex for the purposes of dating and he laughed and said no of course not!

A few years ago I would have been massively shut down by him on this as I was on any other subject we disagreed on. Now he's had time to catch up, being an intelligent person with reasoning capacity he can see some of the issues and his cognitive dissonance has been forced to collapse. However, he's still signalling - perhaps reasonably for fear of losing his job or general ostracism.

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2026 10:28

DH has always been pretty supportive of my position but has upset me at times.

There were things happening which he refused to believe were real. He'd turn around and say it was exaggerated, never happened or were pure propaganda that was twisted. He questioned sources and reliability of information.

I always said to him this was so disrespectful to me given my education. I always checked and always did due diligence about what I was reading and whilst it wasn't from the trusted sources the stories were excellent in detail and journalistic integrity and this has always stood out to me. As well as reasons why they were rejected by mainstream media.

Something was going on and my own journalist instincts kicked in about the sheer number, where they were coming from and who was writing them. It wasn't nutjob groups with over zealous individuals. It wasn't written in overly emotional wording. It wasn't over the top. It was incredibly sensible women stating things which seemed implausible and had everything to lose from doing it.

And this total lack of willingness to even consider the possibility that there was a real problem and truth which was in line with my own personal experience which he was not only well aware of but had been, at times, on the recieving end of really annoyed me.

But this falls into a habit of human behaviour: one that shattered for me as a teen.

The 'nothing that bad could possibly happen to me, because I live in a nice world' bubble. You are trained not to believe all manner of terrible things could happen - and this protects us as humans from becoming gibbering wrecks. But there's also plenty of people who have ultimately survived all manner of situations because they could see something was off and reacted before others did - they realised it wasn't unwarranted anxiety but a legitimate concern. I do think it's very difficult to tell the difference at times.

In the run up to COVID there was a bunch of posters here who said "hmm this one isn't just a daily mail 'everyone is going die of cancer next week' type headline". There was a clear pattern of problem, escalation, out of control state before it got taken seriously by most people. There were people who panicked and blew it up out context too. But theres this firm group of level headers who logiked in a way that was sensible and that's what you look for. Authenticity and level headedness. The ones that don't emote too much.

This is also why Graham Linehan and Caroline Farrow in particular, have had issues. They fail 'the sensibles' test. Maya Forstater, Jo Phoenix and JKRowling all pass. It's the measured language and the way they argue in a robust but clear way.

TRAs hate it. They used the propaganda techniques of blowing up emotions and guilt to push through ideas and The Sensibles cut through that and show it's lack of substance.

But back to my original point. I almost had to convince and show the difference to DH over a very long period. No I haven't lost my mind and entered a conspiracy theory world. I was identifying a major issue that had been deliberately allowed to develop without accountability and scrutiny. Aka a scandal.

I guess he only really started to take it seriously when Newsnight started to cover the Tavistock. He needed the heavyweight journalism and reputation to see what I was seeing (and note the Newsnight journalists also used their instincts to take seriously). At that point he started to realise all these little incidents which mirrored the ones we'd personally had weren't so isolated or out of the ordinary. And indeed many women and children were experiencing far worse because activists had been encouraged and allowed to get out of control without any accountability.

It took him a long time to get over "it's bollocks it's in The Fail" mentality and bias. He just didn't WANT to acknowledge it because it shattered his own world view. One where he wanted to believe that all trans people were just vulnerable and were otherwise nice and completely reasonable, despite what he'd seen with his own eyes.

It's like he's been trailing me in realising the scale of the problem for years. Even though he partly got it. What hurt is he'd rather believe I was crazy and hysterical than take my concerns seriously. That has stayed with me - he knew better even though it was my area of expertise so to speak.

When last year we were sat on hay bails and two tittering men with beards sat down to listen to a talk on women in the outdoors and I whispered to him what was about to happen - a grab to intimidate and silence women and ruin something really important in the sport he loved and had been trained to recognise in terms of how women respond differently to coaching techniques due to skill, confidence and strength differences, I think that's probably been the last bit of the wool falling from his eyes.

He had recognised there's were extremists and nutjob activists who were dominating discourse well before that point. But that point was it colliding with his world, his values and experience and was a sort of normal everyday almost incidious pissing to mark territory and power over women in a fashion and on a topic which has well established creditials as being a legitimate need and a legitimate problem.

My point is even if people see it partly, they often don't want to see it in full because it exposes how dark and deeply it extends and how complicit they themselves have almost been in it for not questioning more sooner and being trusting of those trusted establishments and organisations. It's seeing things and people to value and respect behaviour in a way that's been totally unprofessional, unthinking and lacking in appropriate due diligence. And that's really hard.

It's a smashing of innocence. An innocence that people want to hold onto dearly and believe that something bad isn't happening.

If something bad is happening it challenges you to do something about it. It requires effort. And apathy is also a driver because people don't want confrontation or to do anything. They'd rather just go along with it and hope it goes away.

MN became home to the sensibles. It recognised the integrity. It questioned the stories and filtered crazy from concerning. It raises accountability issues and safeguarding issues.

But most of all it was a space where people facing these real life experiences first hand ended up gathering and exchanging notes. And that's the biggest misconception and mistakes the ploppers make.

They almost, without fail, say "well if you knew and cared about transpeople in your real life, you'd think / do differently".

They bring their prejudices here. It's easy to dismiss us as extremists, right wing nutjobs, conspiracy theorists, aging dinosaurs who don't like change, to characterise us as not understanding the rights and the law, to make out we are hysterical and to dismiss us as angry menopausal women who just hate all men.

The problem is, we are none of those. We are the sensibles. We talk in a way that cuts through the nonsense. It's hated because we get it, because we are educated and because we have our own valid life experiences. We are hated for being articulate and being able to cut through arguments that are so momentumally weak and flawed, it causes embarrassment on the part of the arguer to be challenged so easily and be unable to come up with a credible response other than 'well that's what I was told I should believe'.

It takes time for people facing this to come to terms with it, even if they have one foot through the door. It's hard to see the world as it is, rather than through the lens of a potential perfect utopia of progressive thinking where everyone is accepted for who they are without any issues. It's hard to notice the unintended consequences of this thinking. It's hard to see the dark undercurrents and dark side of humans exploiting other humans for their own power and kicks. Because that means we have to challenge our own lives and how we have been blinkered to something so widespread and been part of the problem from our lack of willingness to listen to the troubles of others who really don't have a voice. We want to believe were listening to the most vulnerable and it comes as a shock that we may have been duped and mislead and actively controlled into closing our ears to those who don't have advocacy and agency from institutions. We thought we were being nice when really we were being staggeringly naive to the point that not everyone is nice.

DH now thinks it's a social cult with mass support which needs to be dealt with and challenged properly. But it took a long time to get here. He no longer thinks I've been reading too much bullshit online and doesn't patronise my integrity. It's not been easy.