What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

"Ladies... We have reached our otter target" 😎

@Seethlaw Beeee Kind!

@Seethlaw "For me, it would depend on what you mean by "support". Cheering from the sidelines? Sure! Actually putting in any work? No, I really don't have an obligation to do that."

Once again, where did I suggest that women should put in the work? Once again, this is a forum for discussion; on a societal level these interconnected issues, and to just put your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalala' is contributing nothing to the conversation.

It feels insane to be explaining this to an adult woman, but I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people.

Yes. You can see this from the polling. A majority of people say 'yes' to allowing others to identify as a different gender to their sex, but 'no' to allowing them to use opportunities and facilities meant for the opposite sex.

Now, now, stick to The Topic please!

ps. Pineapple on pizza is vile... @Boiledbeetle

There's a difference between saying things to be kind, conform or not get into an argument, and really believing.

Why doesnt it ever make the news when a TM gives birth, will it be news worthy if TW does?

Lots of people will put constraints on TW that they wouldn't put on women - surgery, drugs, presentation, certificates.

All this indicates that no, people do not believe TWAW. All they have done is change the definition of woman.

Many people believe it is kind to say that TWAW. That is not the same as believing that TWAW.

Quite right.

And I only included the pineapple on pizza because I know @Boiledbeetle would rise to the bait. It's like trolling Bindel with crisps on a train journey.@

But if someone started a thread on that, would you just shout at them that you have no obligation to support them because the subject has nothing to do with women's rights?

?

There is no prohibition on feminists supporting initiatives that have nothing to do with women's rights.

C'mon. Give us a link

I think roughly speaking, it's 50/50. Most studies I've seen don't vary much more than 60/40 either way.

Yes the point is that there are several areas any human can experience social privilege. If you remember, you asked me how a woman can have any social privilege so I had to explain that to you.

"Care to share some evidence of women's "social privilege"?"

It seemed as if you believed that all woman are more oppressed than all men which of course would be a ridiculous thing to say or think.

The public outrage when it was discovered the Isla Bryson could be placed in a women prison shows that TWAW isn't anything like a common belief.

The population support excluding men from women's sports and spaces where women are vulnerable.

All of these exclusions show that population doesnt believe TWAW. At best some believe that certain accommodations can be made.

But noone is able to say when a man becomes a women for these accommodations and what 'these accommodations' are.

There is evidence that shows most women believe TWAW. I think this is so obvious i am really.not going to Google it for you. I think you are seriously deluded if you believe only a tiny minority of women believe TWAW. If they did, you wouldn't be fighting so hard to be heard. Women are the main supporters of TW.

1. It has everything to do with womens rights because it recognises that men have problems that they perpetuate themselves and we cant help them with them.

2. Men taking repsonbility for their own services is part of them being accountable for the problems they perpetuate. It recognises that the emotional labour has too long been on women.

3. and yes it is their responsibility, and that is why them creating the space to do that and all of society generally supporting them in doing so is aligned with feminism. It eases one way women are oppressed by men.

Quite. I think this is another tactic. TRAs slipping in these unevidenced claims in the hope that they won't be challenged on them.

BTW, this is a spectacular derail, congratulations!

I won't be enabling you to do this anymore, so won't be responding unless you get back on topic.

(Which is what you wanted us to do, apparently).

A woman can be rich, white, educated, able bodied, living in a high opportunity environment, etc etc.

And a man can be rich, white, educated, able bodied, living in a high opportunity environment, etc etc. and will have a higher "social privilege " than that woman.

Sex matters. It always matters.

So no evidence. Thanks for showing that.

1. Has nothing to do with women's rights OR the point of the OP's original question.
2. This is madey-uppey, AI BS. Patriarchy and women's sex-based oppression is what caused women to be in the role of "caring" for men in the first place. That, and the fact that of men simply not taking responsibility for themselves.
3. This is men's responsibility to deal with, to work on themselves. Not women's problem or job, and nothing to do with feminism.

Feminism centers women, not men. Men's mental health is a men problem and centers men.

Like the MPs who want to stop the guidance.

The problem is that they aren't defining what they mean.

It could be that they believe that just saying 'I'm trans' makes it so, or a certificate, or surgery, or clothes.

Or it could be none of those, but they think single sex spaces still work if anyone can use either.

Its as if you are saying perceived intelligent people dont need to show their working, and GC feminist have to find a way to reach out to them.

That even hypothetical otters aren't allowed on the flight deck so all 100 of them must be positioned elsewhere on the aircraft?

A woman can be rich, white, educated, able bodied, living in a high opportunity environment, etc etc. Sex isnt the only area that people experience privilege or oppression.

I think it is pretty clear from a range of studies with varied results that a good amount of people believe TWAW and a good amount of people do not. More women believe TWAW than men it seems.

I am saying it is about 50/50 when you put all that together. I think it would be bordering on delusion to say otherwise.