What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

Following up on this (and returning to the original post again): I think that GCs and TRAs would agree that the (socially-constructed) misogyny that makes men aggressive towards women is the same misogyny that makes men aggressive to gay people and transpeople.

You are assuming that gay people and transpeople aren't men or capable of misogyny.

Its as if misogyny has been redefined as the hatred of all things not masculine by 'cis men'.

Trans ideology redefine woman away from sex into whatever an individual man wants it to mean. That's misogyny.

I am happy to keep posting polling data. I don’t believe there is any current polling that supports a consistent population opinion poll that the majority of people ‘believe TWAW’. When further explored the majority of expression of belief is directly contradicted.

If there is evidence and consistency in the data to support a claim where the majority of people ‘believe TWAW’, please link it up.

I'm at work. Aren't you?

I already posted a link to the YouGov opinion polls (twice in fact) but it seems that our FlexibleFriend has been frightened off by facts that contradict her view that women are split 50:50 whether TWAW which is of course total nonsense.

It's in answer to the original post; in the same way that someone jokingly initially replied with 'GCs and TRAs can both agree that gravity exists', I think that GCs and reasonable TRAs can both agree that stereotypes lie at the heart of the problem and that women and transpeople both face challenges in the world. I don't think pointing out that those challenges stem from the same place is irrelevant to this discussion.

US GALLUP ABOUT SPORTS, BIRTH SEX ON GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS

https://news.gallup.com/poll/691454/two-thirds-prefer-birth-sex-ids-athletics.aspx

"Roughly two-thirds of Americans support two separate policies prioritizing the birth sex of transgender people over their current gender identity. Sixty-nine percent of U.S. adults continue to believe that transgender athletes should only be allowed to play on sports teams that match their birth sex, and 66% of Americans say a person’s birth sex rather than gender identity should be listed on government documents such as passports or driver’s licenses."

and

"Between 2021 and now, Democrats’ and independents’ levels of support for transgender athletes to play on sports teams that align with their current gender identity have both fallen by 10 points (to 45% and 23%, respectively), while Republicans’ support has not changed significantly."

There is a csv file downloadable on this link .

Not at all, it's just that it's silly to try and have a conversation with you about whether something that men do can be considered Feminist if you don't think it's possible for men to do anything feminist. I disagree with you that a man who upholds that women are no less important and valid and fully human than men and there should be no disadvantages that women must simply accept purely due to their sex is a humanist, because Humanism is explicitly, emphatically and centrally atheist whereas feminism can be compatible with both theism and atheism according to personal conscience. However I am perfectly capable of disagreeing in a civil way without getting angry. Being accused of getting angry for no reason when I have not shown the slightest reason for it is tiresome and makes it look like you are trying to deflect away from a difficult question though.

Following up on this (and returning to the original post again): I think that GCs and TRAs would agree that the (socially-constructed) misogyny that makes men aggressive towards women is the same misogyny that makes men aggressive to gay people and transpeople.

In the same way that 'gay panic' was used by misogynists as an excuse for homophobia in the 80s and 90s (i.e. This man is gay, he's going to try to make me gay - read: less of a man), the existence of transwomen shows them that there is a way to be a man without the misogynist stereotype of 'manliness', which some men will find confronting and lash out against.

So, just because you, personally, believe it is relevant?

Is it misogyny? The term misogyny is one that has a specific meaning. And no male person is female.

Or is what you are talking about ‘perceived sexist stereotyping’?

Forcing usage of the female term ‘misogyny’ is an act of forced team.

Your personal criteria of what you believe is relevant doesn’t reflect the universal understanding of feminism.

Again, why is it relevant to the discussion about female single sex provisions?

Why is what you wish to discuss relevant at all to female people’s single sex based rights?

Have you confused feminism with egalitarianism?

NZ POLLING FROM 2023
newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/03/race-relations-among-most-divisive-issues-in-election-poll/

“A report from pollsters Talbot Mills, seeking to understand the degree to which New Zealand has become more politically polarised, shows people broadly agree on Covid-19 measures and gun laws but are divided over or opposed to policies for Māori and transgender people.”

And

“The least favoured policy was allowing transgender women to compete in women’s sport – just 14 percent supported it versus 60 percent who opposed.”

and

“Half of respondents opposed allowing transgender women (described as “biological males who identify as women” in the poll questions) to use women’s bathrooms, with 21 percent supporting the move.”

If the majority reject male people in female sport, they don’t “believe that TWAW”.

If only a minority actively support male people in female single sex provisions, it is false to say most people ‘believe TWAW’. Because if they did, then the majority would support male people in female single sex provisions.

@Helleofabore "Why is a male experiencing violence and abuse being mentioned on a feminist board discussing the needs of female people? What does acknowledgement of that issue mean to feminist discussion?"

It acknowledges that misogyny also affects men. Misogyny encourages men to act a certain way to be 'manly', and when testosterone mixes with perceived impotence. the misogynist idea that men are somehow 'superior' to women is liable to bubble over into male violence. Real transpeople have - to varying extents on a person-to-person basis - made a conscious decision to ignore misogynist ideas of what makes someone 'manly'. This in no way entitles them to women's spaces, and doesn't mean I should call them a woman if I don't want to, but it does appear to be based in a rejection of misogynist ideas of what a man should be.

It's taking a wider view of the subject, sure. Misogyny is still something that men should fix themselves and we aren't obligated to do anything, but I think its relevant context for a wider feminist discussion.

One from Australia

AUSTRALIAN STUDY ON TRANSGENDER ATHLETES IN FEMALE SPORTS & ON PRONOUN USAGE

Especially for those who continue to believe that the majority of the world's population are fully supportive of the demands from trans people. Rather than that many of the world's population is supportive of some of the demands of trans people but have limits. 50,000 Australians filled in this survey.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/all-the-questions-in-one-place-from-great-aussie-debate/news-story/ca8ab531382816ec97a4151b9088fab7

18. Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete in women’s sport?
No = 82.6%
It depends on the sport = 8.2%
I don’t know = 4.9%
Trans women are women = 4.2%

4.2% answered they believe TWAW as an answer to the direct question about sports.

There was also a Sex Matters poll done within days of the YouGov tracker.

These are the results of it compared to in the past too. Just pulling them together, the Sex Matters (2533 adults polled) results were often more supportive than the YouGov results (2078 adults polled).

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024 SM (YG 2024)
Should be allowed 27 [16] 11%SM 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 16% (YG 12%)
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74%SM 2018 - 2024 SM this is increase by 26% (YG 74%)
Don't know 25 [22] 15%SM. 2018 - 2024 this is SM decrease by 10% (YG 14%)

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 27%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is decrease by 15% (YG 25%)*
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 56%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is increase by 23% (YG 58%)
Don't know 25 [23] 17%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is decrease by 8% (YG 17%)*

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%SM. 2018 - 2024 SMthis is decrease by 13% (YG 29%)
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is increase by 20% (YG 55%)
Don't know 23 [21] 16%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 7% (YG 16%)

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 31%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 16% (YG 29%)
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 47%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is increase by 20% (YG 52%)
Don't know 26 [25] 22%SM. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease SM by 4% (YG 20%)

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024SM (YG 2024)
Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%SM. 2020 - 2024SM this is decrease by 6% (YG 19%)
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is increase by 16% (YG 63%)
Don't know 28 [27] 18%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 10% (YG 18%)
Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 5% (YG 23%)
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is increase by 17% (YG 60%)
Don't know 27 [25] 16%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 11% (YG 18%)

For anyone interested in refreshing their memory.

YOUGOV UK TRACKER COMPARISONS

The following is the data from UK trackers from 2018 - 2024 tracking public opinion as part of their series of 'Where does the British public stand on transgender rights'. 2018 results included where they are available.

Here are some of the results that relate to the needs for female people to have single sex provisions:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024*this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

No surgery question was asked in 2018
And the specific non surgical question from 2020:
Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...
Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:

This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39[32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%
Does present a genuine risk of harm 32[39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Transgender_study_2024.pdf

I think women are fucking tired of being told what they should be doing to be considered kind and what they should be discussing by those people who have their own personal criteria, for whatever reason, as to what women who are kind should be doing.

I will repost this from pages back.

The point women are making is not denying that some male people might be at risk of violence and abuse. Male people with and without transgender identities.

The point really is ‘so what does that mean to the discussion about female single sex provisions of any kind’?

Why do you and other people mention this violence and abuse in the first place?

Why is a male experiencing violence and abuse being mentioned on a feminist board discussing the needs of female people? What does acknowledgement of that issue mean to feminist discussion ?

@GiddyGiddyGiddy

So let me try answering the original post again, so that I can be completely crystal clear about what I mean;

I think TRAs and GC people are both sick of how toxic the debate has become, and I think a large part of that stems from social media and the flattening of language it facilitates.

How is this modelling your own demand to be ‘kind’?

There seems to be an awful lot of do as I say, not as I do with your posts.

This is exactly what I mean though; just because I'm pointing out that the debate has become so polarised, and suggesting all transpeople shouldn't be conflated with the worst 1% of TRAs, you've told me that I'm a man who is just here to make you look bad.

I agree that the actions of a minority of TRAs are absolutely disgusting. I agree that TWAW is a though-terminating cliche. I agree that women have a right to single-sex spaces. The original point that I made was that the whole discussion has got ugly and out-of-hand, and that social media has a large amount to do with that, and I fail to see how that's controversial.

I've seen GCs who openly mock transpeople (Note: just transpeople. Not TRAs, just transpeople living their life), making fun of their appearance and turning a blind eye towards the actual struggles they face - not shit about changing rooms or toilets, but that fact that walking through a city at night is substantially more dangerous for them that it would be for regular men.

I can sympathise with that because I'm a woman and I also would feel in danger if I was walking through a city at night. I'm not demanding that you have the same sympathy, but I think just belittling all transpeople on the actions of the worst TRAs doesn't help anyone, and I think the flat-out refusal to acknowledge that transpeople might face any difficulties is.

The fact that there are violent people who claim they're transwomen doesn't reflect on everyday transpeople, and I don't expect them to have to apologise on their behalf, in the same way I wouldn't expect my Muslim friends to apologise for terrorists or myself to apologise for Rose West.

And this is the point.

When directly asked about the application of that ‘belief’ for the purposes of female single sex provisions, a question that is better understood, the answers are consistently ‘no male people should not be accessing female single sex provisions’. Ie. No. The majority of female people do not ‘believe TWAW’.

It always pays, doesn’t it, to drill down below the superficial.

Do you believe that it's impossible for a man to be a feminist?

@GiddyGiddyGiddy Is it kind and caring to call a transman a woman?

Empirically false. There are oodles of studies showing that women are penalized both professionally and personally for failing to conform to stereotypical femininity.