Scared of gender neutral bathrooms

The trans rights movement don't want to admit the reality that transmen often pass quite well and transwomen almost never pass.

Out of interest what/which establishments are you referring to when you say they have turned all their facilities into mixed sex?

I think most places will retain their single sex provisions and maybe add in a single occupancy 'gender neutral' faciity alongside them. Very few large establishments are going to go to the expense of installing expensive compliant unisex facilities in place of their existing provisions. Those that already have done this ( installed mixed sex only), are going to have to make the most modifications in order to be compliant.

Small establishments tend only to have a couple of single occupancy self contained rooms...so not much change required for them, with the exception, maybe, of appropriate labelling on the door.

Aha. Just found this from Keeptoiletssafe, a campaigning poster who know more about this kind of thing than a depressing number of policy makers.

Don't know how to tag her in, but she writes on another thread:

If they are making all toilets mixed sex, then this is not allowed under building regs and regulations. It is costly and is discriminatory.

I thought this was the case, but didn't want to type it without certainty.

Your worst-case scenario - the above becoming the default in place of single sex spaces - is, I think, illegal.

Single, self-enclosed and closely monitored gender-neutral facilities will of course remain the norm in, for example, tiny cafes.

Ah ok, that's what I was going to ask. The only gender neutral toilets I've seen are self-contained cubicles with sinks inside. I think this is the type of toilet that is more commonly being built now if single sex provision isn't preferred for whatever reason, rather than a single sex style toilet for both sexes.

Well, of course not all trans identified people will pose a threat to women. However, I think something like 98% of sexual assaults are committed by men. So, it is the male part which poses (statistically) the higher risk. Irrespective of whether those males identify as being women. So, maybe strip back on the general ‘transpeople’ bit as that just obfuscates the fact the risks are based on sex. At the end of the day, ‘transpeople’ just boils down to men and women, irrespective of how they identify.

A biological female (even if they identify as a man) in the women’s toilets would not pose the same risk (statistically) as a biological male in the women’s toilets.

I’m very sorry that you had this experience, it’s dreadful.

Gender neutral toilets are stand alone rooms - ie not cubicles with lockable doors and do not open onto corridors. Does this describe where you were assaulted ?

I'm glad it was helpful. Do note, I also highlighted that single sex is gong to remain the default (and that I understand that there's legal recourse if there ever were to be any issue in this respect). The suggestion that it won't is such cruel scaremongering, and your post reinforces this.

Have you met any transmen? They tend to be hairy, sure, which can mislead you for a moment. But their stature, frame, hand and wrist size, gait are all clearly female. I honestly think after a quick second glance you'd feel ok.

It might help to reframe it from ‘safe’ to ‘suitable’.

People should use the facilities that are suitable for them. If you have an underlying mental health issues that makes some unsuitable then that’s a disability and if the disabled toilet features make that one suitable for you then that’s a fairly straightforward solution.

It’s difficult to realise the breadth of applicability of the term disabled and the variation that came comes with it. A lot of people assume it only applies to other people, or struggle to accept that they have additional needs in some circumstances.

What are you on about OP? There will be no difference whatsoever in which facilities what you refer to as male-presenting females use. None. They will use whatever they currently use.

Im not sure what changes you think are going to be made wholesale next month. The law hasn’t changed, it’s been clarified. Mixed sex facilities need to be entirely self contained, including a sink. You won’t find yourself in a toilet with a male.

It might be worthwhile to stick around and read some threads in the board @toilettalking

If you do a search here on the terms transman and trans identified female, you might find that helps a bit to ease your mind.

First off I just want to say I'm really sorry you were assaulted by a man, that's really awful

In specifically marked multi-person mixed sex toilets you are likely to encounter people of both sexes.

If I were you, where possible, I'd aim to only go to places where there is clear single sex toilets for women.

Trans identified females who feel they pass sufficiently are less likely to be there, as it seems they quite often seek out single occupant or neutral toilets and have apps to help them achieve that. I think it's really considerate of the trans identified females who do this, and I suspect it's because they are very considerate of other how some women like you, may have an immediate reaction due to prior experiences, even if it becomes apparent really very quickly that they are actually female.

In places where there should be and has no reason not to have male and female single sex toilets, or had previously had male and female single sex toilets, but the female single sex toilets were at some point changed to be mixed sex, there is the likely hood of indirect or direct discrimination AFAIK.

Disabled toilets are generally single, self contained units.

If a previous experience has left you in a position where anxiety prevents you from being able to use the non disabled toilets in a particular venue then I’d suggest that that is a very valid reason to use the disabled toilet at that venue. You have an additional need that isn’t met in the standard one.

The SC judgement acknowledges that no one should be disadvantaged by toilet provision. This includes trans people, who may prefer gender neutral loos, but also women, whose protected characteristic of sex means they're potentially more disadvantaged than men by the provision of gender neutral loos only. This offers protection to both you and to trans people.

There's a great deal of scaremongering right now which disregards this, and this is being exploited by activists. It's not at all uncommon to have people coming here and hypothesising that women will be worse off for having confirmed their rights in law in the face of these being ignored and undermined for so many years. It's an utterly despicable tactic, and the lack of respect and care it shows for women like yourself goes a long way to confirming the vital importance of the judgement to us.

In the meantime, on a practical level (although I know this isn't agreed by all here), I'd suggest using the disabled - you are, after all, disabled by your trauma. This, too, helps to highlight the importance of the recent judgement, of course, and the absurdity of anyone who would argue for entirely mixed-sex provision: there are far more women in your position than there are trans people who may prefer the disabled in the face of single sex only.

And this is why single sex will remain the norm - never fear. It was always there for a good reason, and that reason hasn't gone away. The evidence base is huge, and your fearful post here sadly contributes to it.

Look after yourself.

Hi OP!

In case you're genuine: you're posting right after a volley of non-genuine "concerned" posts and threads have been made, and you're mentioning a very classic "concerned" topic ("what about transmen?") So don't take any suspicion personally.

Regarding transmen: I would suggest you familiarise yourself with all the tells of a transman: height, gait, length of limbs, size of hands and feet, shape of face and body, lack of Adam's apple, and so on. And even behaviour: a transman among women is more likely to revert to an accommodating attitude than a man would be. Once you learn how to spot a transman almost instantly, there'll be extremely few cases, if any, where you won't be able to recognise one when you see one, and thus be at ease around them.

🤔

The SC actually ruled that it's OK to exclude 'passing' transmen from the ladies.

I agree that gender neutral spaces are less safe and would hate to see them replace single sex spaces but would welcome that as additional spaces if in suitable, safer locations.