Linehan tweeting misogyny and racism now

My experience too, and I’ve seen it on Facebook, Twitter and Reddit as well as here. A common deflection.

Yes.

And the script become very apparent on the Khelif threads.

Often a poster started with one of the fallacy positions : biological sex is a spectrum, the natural variation within a sex category, or the but female athletes win, were the common ones. Then the come back was : competitive sports should be banned as it is not inclusive or the ‘I don’t agree with this sport being legal anyway’ pivot.

In all of that interaction, what the person didn’t seem to realise is that not once did they consider female athlete’s needs. It always seemed to be more of that the poster wanted male people to be centred or they wanted to take the opportunity to virtue signal what they morally believed was the correct thoughts or some just wanted to try to push their own agenda that they disagreed with anything that feminists and women’s rights campaigners said because they didn’t want to be considered to have the same views or something.

It was clear that the engagement was not actually about them taking in the science and considering the options from the needs of the female athletes.

As far as scientific research goes, women punching women do just as much brain damage to each other as men punching men.

That may be true but in Khelifs case it's a man punching a woman

Exactly. It goes hand in hand with “I don’t care about sport anyway, it’s not important” when people are asked to defend why men should compete in women’s sports.

For anyone wishing to see the science behind male power vs female power, and the damage on female people, if you search for the World Rugby slides you will find the discussion laid out there as they modelled the impact difference and the impact on the body. Including the brain.

Elizabeth Williams, a Professor at Swansea did a study where she measured the speed of female people’s heads via their mouth guard. When her research has been modelled against the power exerted by male rugby players vs female rugby players, the WR board found the risk was much greater due to male power. I cannot see how Boxing would have a different outcome.

I haven’t seen a link to it, however Dr Ross Tucker discussed it after the World Rugby conference in London where the decision to ban all male people playing in female rugby in WR matches was decided.

In the meantime, I look forward to NullaEffugium posting the research that shows the same amount of brain damage from female punches to the head versus male punches.

“As far as scientific research goes, women punching women do just as much brain damage to each other as men punching men”

Please produce the research you have told me has compared women’s punch power and brain damage versus male punch power and the brain damage level caused. I would love to read it.

I didn’t say that I ‘support’ boxing at all. However, it is a legal sport and therefore it needs to be safe as possible including not allowing any male boxer compete as a female athlete where female boxer’s believe they are boxing another female boxer and therefore have had their consent negated. Because they didn’t consent to boxing with a male boxer.

So, yes. The poster moving from declaring that Khelif loses sometimes as if that justifies his being included in female sport to then declaring that the sport should be banned anyway, is rightfully described as a swerve or a pivot.

Of course women produce testosterone. Here is something that discusses the limits, but the research from David Handelsman and other research as well, have been very clear about the levels in female and male people. There is no over for healthy athletes between male and female ranges of testosterone. Female people who have a natural reading above the range mentioned have health issues that would exclude them competing as it is likely to be a tumour producing that level.

Yes. It is a swerve and a common one, to move from supporting Khelif competing in female boxing because he doesn’t win every time, which is a fallacious argument because it is irrelevant to the issue of why we have female sports in the first place to then declare it should be banned anyway.

These are two very different issues

here is the testosterone ranges. Many of us on this thread know this information because we have discussed in depth and have read the academic papers and studies about this issue.

RE: PCOS & FEMALE PEOPLE WITH HIGHER TESTOSTERONE

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Plus there is this:

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus this discusses the ranges

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus this Hoovlet post with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

https://womenssportspolicy.org/q10-dont-some-healthy-females-produce-testosterone-in-the-male-range/

Just to debunk any notions about comparability of female vs male testosterone profiles post-puberty.

Women produce and process testosterone, so it’s a bit more complex than that.

As far as scientific research goes, women punching women do just as much brain damage to each other as men punching men.

It isn’t a pivot to advocate banning physical violence that is being masked as a socially acceptable ´sport’

I find it personally abhorrent that any woman would support two women beating each other up for the entertainment of mostly men. That’s basically a way of perpetuating VAWG without men personally getting their fists bloody. They still get the thrill of it. It’s sickening.

Boxing & MMA should be banned.
It is no better than dog fights, cock 🐓 fights, bullrings and bear baiting.

Forcing sentient beings to injure or even kill for entertainment. It’s just wrong.

I think they should ban heading the ball in football too for the same post concussion syndrome issues coming up.

I don’t think that’s a swerve.

Fucking ridiculous. I hope she complains.

Well, it’s the men who are trying to aggressively plonk themselves in spaces where women are vulnerable, in a state of undress, or just require some privacy. It is also the men who may start filming women in said spaces.

Unfortunately, for women, men with paraphilias (which involve transgressing women’s boundaries) many times go on to abuse, hurt, and even murder women. So, I think it would be a good thing to make everyone aware of these men’s fanaticism, obsession, and danger to women.

Oh, what big teeth you have ‘grandma’.

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/2079810947128934637?s=46

‘both sides’ apparently.

There is no symmetry.

I see.

However, your opinion does not match up to the scientific research in this field.

Because when female people punch other female people they have 2.6 x less powerful a punch.

There is no way around that logic.

It is also a consent issue.

The women who didn't consent to being punched in the ring by a male boxer, could not forfeit their games because they were in the olympics being told that they were fighting a female athlete. Do you understand the significance here?

You have now just pivoted to 'it is too dangerous anyway'. Just because you personally don't agree is also rather meaningless now considering the OIC have now made the ruling. If Khelif is female, Khelif will compete at the next Olympics as planned.

That doesn't change the facts that Khelif is male and no male athletes should be competing in female sports categories if they have processed any testosterone that they produce and can process. Not even if they were mistakenly observed as being a female infant.

I'm sure some paralympians could hold their own against some able bodied athletes. Does that mean we shouldn't have the Paralympics?

You either have women's sports, or you don't.

So if what you really want is "women, older guys, unfit guys and anyone else who probably can't beat top tier men" sports, just be honest and call it that.

I agree this is a classic cop out position.

In the case of prisons in particular often invoked by people who 100% know that men in women's provision is wrong, but don't care enough about women's safety or are too easily intimidated to stand up for what they know to be right.

Fine to want to outlaw boxing, but surely the immediate cessation of men in women's boxing is the first priority

Oh, it's the "it's too complciated/ inconvenient for me to face the implications of what I'm advocating, so let's just ban the whole thing" swerve.

Also seen in the wild as "well I don't think we should be sedning people to prison anyway, so I don't need to deal with the reality that my beliefs mean women were and in may places still are being incarcerated with and hurt by men who claim to be women"

My thoughts about the women who beat Khelif is if it's dangerous for a young woman to get into the ring with him then surely it is at least as dangerous for them to get into the ring with a woman who can beat him. Should we really classify boxing as a sport in a supposed civilised society in the 21st century? We don't just allow people to do lots of dangerous things eg drugs bot for under 18s we don't let them smoke it drink alcohol but we let teenagers get into the ring and potentially get head injuries that might not affect them immediately, although sometimes that happens, but in the future can lead to serious issues. Even Mohammed Ali who didn't suffer head injuries for a large part of his career suffered in the end.

I can engage with fairness in things like athletics or skating etc but boxing? No just ban it

For any reader who is not up to date with the physical advantages male people who have produced and used testosterone in their bodies from birth have over female people, please read the links in this thread below.

It is not just important for sports, but also why female people need single sex provisions where they face less risk of attack by a male person who has had the advantages of testosterone production and utilisation.

In this thread below, expect to find the evidence that led to the IOC bringing back sex screening, including the performance gap between male and female people of punch power difference of 162% (males punch 2.6 times harder ), and significantly grip strength too. Along with female people having more delicate brain fibres leading to concussion and potentially permanent brain damage (including dementia) and more delicate bone strength.

There is a reason even male people who lose in sport should not be competing in female events. The papers about meaningful competition is linked in the thread. Including why fallacious comparisons fail.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

Here is also an important finding about Khelif’s leaked medical report that I don’t believe anyone disproved was his legitimate report. (If anyone has proven it is not his,please link it up)

x.com/swipewright/status/1853472646656086264?s=46

5ARD is the DSD Semenya has and the MN thread linked above covers 5ARD too.

No male athlete should be punching female athletes in the face just because they have lost to women before!

That is along the same premise for the argument that male people should use female single sex provisions because they are not safe in male provisions. Both of those weak arguments completely ignore why female single sex provisions exist in the first place.

And both prioritise male people over female people’s needs.

"I'm sick of Mumsnet glazing Graham Linehan!"

What? 😂

He's rarely mentioned these days. He moved to America to do other things. The only reason I even hear what GL is up to is when someone like OP starts another thread attempting to get him. I'm not sure what the aim of this one is. To get his Twitter account shut down? To get every woman who holds gender critical views to denounce him far and wide, across the land? The OP always seems to be coming from the viewpoint that Graham Linehan is king of the terfs or something, and can't understand why the rest of us aren't equally obsessed.

OP also doesn't seem to understand that a person can be thin-skinned and mean on Twitter, and also have been brave and faced abuse. The one doesn't automatically cancel out the other. People contain multitudes, and most of the women here don't think someone has to be perfect before they're allowed to hold gender critical views. Common sense is always going to be a big tent. You don't have to agree with every single opinion Graham has ever had to acknowledge his contribution to the fight. I don't know why some people find this so hard to wrap their heads around.

Hopefully this will be Giddy's last flounce. It's getting a bit groundhog day now.

I guess some people find it enjoyable to watch exceptional female boxers being punched in the nose by a mediocre male boxer as we saw at the Olympics. I remember the injured female boxer was demonised for complaining.

Apparently, it is all good… nothing to see.

It is absolutely irrelevant whether a male athlete has ever been beaten by female athletes.

Making that argument is a sure sign that you don’t understand competitive advantage.

Why the fuck should a male person who has the access to performance advantages that no female athlete has access to be allowed access to female sport where he can not only win, but potentially cause significant harm / injury to a female athlete?

If female athletes are beating male athletes, those female athletes are exceptional. The male athletes are not, even if they place second.

Should a cyclist who has any kind of motor on his bike compete in the Tour de France? What about if they don’t win, does that make it ok?

Testosterone is a performance enhancer. Why the fuck should female athletes have to face risk of harm and loss of opportunity to a performance enhanced male even if that male person doesn’t win?

Yeah that's exactly what everyone wants to see. Reellly rubbish male boxers dominating female sport, and getting punched occasionally because they're crap.

Imane Khelif has been beaten by women fighters more than once. At least I'm sure I read that somewhere.