Vulva Only Spaces

A cockless man is still a man.

Why are you angsting about this? The law is clear. Single SEX spaces are segregated by SEX.

Any extreme body modification or mutilation a man chooses fo indulge in is just that. They’re not women, so they stay out of women’s single sex spaces. It’s really clear and easy.

But changing the wording from "women" to "vulva" makes it less clear, especially if you assimilate "neo-vulvas" to vulvas.

"Women" is clear. In a space with only women in it, there will never be a penis. There might be a neo-penis, but it will be attached to a woman still. Problem solved.

Well yes, obviously. How can male body parts become female ones?

No thanks
Women’s single sex spaces or female only is fine.

@Lurkingandlearning your a man aren’t you?

Was it? But you seemed in your OP to be arguing for ‘female plus some males’.

They are still not women. Not matter what surgical alterations they’ve had.

Err no. Lets not segregate based on what our genitals 'look' like (for a very wide definition of look).

How dehumanising. How transphobic (no-one owes you genital surgery)

I’m not looking to argue at all, the tone of the thread has been a bit confrontational thus far, but for me, even if surgery created the most beautiful Neo-vulva (I’ve never heard any evidence that it does), it would still be attached to a man. And we can’t tell which men are the bad ones.

Yes it’s better if they haven’t got a willy to wave at women but we see constant examples of metaphorical willy-waggling behaviour from men throwing power and strength around. This has all gone too far for a live-and-let-live scenario like we had pre the last decade.

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They?

So... Female single-sex spaces? That does it.

Without even getting into the ins and outs of whether it is a good idea, I think you haven't thought through the implications of suggesting that certain rights are dependent on being castrated.

The ECtHR has already judged that this would violate human rights.

It's a non-starter.

And how do we know if a man claiming to have has surgery has had it or not?

No, 🤯 FFS what's wrong with you, humans aren't made out of playdough, you can't create a vulva out of a penis.

Crikey. Back to genital inspections, I see. "Could I see your fake-vulva please, Sir?"

@Lurkingandlearning

Oh and how the hell are we supposed to know if the transwoman walking into the ladies is post-op or not? A certificate? A badge? Ask them to show us? Or are we asking them nicely to only use women's spaces if they had the surgery and trusting that they would never ever fib?

I wish Mumsnet would let us post photos of these surgeries. Alas they won't, which is probably for the best, thinking about it I have enough crap on my devices as it is.

A high percentage of the surgeries do not look anything like the curated images used on the surgery websites. Maybe the OP should do a bit of internet sleuthing into 'gender affirming surgery' and it's many pitfalls.

As an aside a man remains a man, no matter how good a job of making his cock and balls look like something else a surgeon with a scalpel can do.

Yes. You are wrong. The idea that an artificial fistula that needs to be constantly maintained to prevent it from healing is in any way similar or equivalent to a vulva is incredibly misogynistic. It comes from the same patriarchal headspace as "any hole's a goal" - ie that the primary function is to be a wanksock for a man's penis. That is not what a vulva is.

Going to extraordinary bodymodification lengths does not buy a man a ticket into female-only spaces.

Is this what we need to be asking for now?

No. "Female spaces" is fine.

That wouldn't exclude people who had transitioned.

Men who have transitioned don't have a vulva. They have something that may be called a "neo-vulva" or whatever, but by definition, it's still a part of a male anatomy, since it is attached to a male body and is made of male cells.

But it would exclude people who have a penis. Surely when people had transitioned and have a vulva instead of a penis they would feel exactly the same way, as women.

How could they? They've never had a female anatomy, only a modified male anatomy. Nor have they had female socialisation. In short: they've never been women, because they are and will always be men.

'Perhaps you're hot and tired.'
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